Accessibility Ally

00:00
Welcome to Accessibility Ally. It's a podcast featuring guests with a range of disabilities and social identities. They share provocative ideas and challenge allies to disrupt ableism. And I'm your host, Karima Lonson. Thanks for tuning in. So excited to talk to Julie Glaser and Laura Swain today. We're really focused on

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multi-generational uh workplaces and how accessibility really shows up across generations in workplaces. So I'd love to invite you, Julie, to introduce yourself uh and let us know the kind of work you do in your world. Sure, great. Thanks very much for having me today, Corey. Julie Glazer. I live in the Annapolis Valley in Nova Scotia.

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And I've been working for about 25 years in inclusion and accessibility space and incorporating all those pieces into the work that I do in terms of whatever I do, either as an employee or as a consultant. um I am also a person with lived experience, um kind of multiple experiences, more recently diagnosed.

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um and also living with some chronic conditions that flare up and um certainly create some opportunities for creativity in the workplace to figure out how to uh manage symptoms um when I'm experiencing them. So lived experience as well as professional experience um on this topic. Great. Thanks so much, Julie. And Laura, what about you?

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Also, thank you so much for having me here today and happy to be chatting with Julia as well. So my name is Laura Swain. I am the manager of community programs with the YWCA of Halifax. um She her pronouns. And you know, my experience is working with vast and varied teams of people uh doing lots of community based work. And so excited to talk today about how

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that's evolving over time, but in this current climate and how accessibility plays into that. Yeah, and so our focus today, of course, is how accessibility kind of shows up, how it's perceived across multiple generations at work. So we know that each generation has a different understanding of disability from both stigma to silence to advocacy and openness.

02:47
So how do you, Laura, see those generational differences shaping accessibility in workplaces today, and in particular in the ones you've been part of? Yeah, I mean, I think for me, a lot of the way that this surfaces is around acknowledgement of language around it and um expectation and supports that are in place. And so uh I was thinking about this on the way over.

03:17
I think my youngest staff I have right now is probably very early 20s and my oldest is actually over 65. So I actually support a team that really spans a huge age gap, but also in terms of like their needs and the ways that they're showing up.

03:40
In I would say the last few years, that younger age group that's coming in has a much better understanding or expectation around uh themselves and their needs, so are able to articulate kind of like, is what I need. uh And then you have others kind of who are uh figuring out, uh learning what some of those needs might be due to like.

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later in life diagnosis or just new language and new understanding of what's happening for them. And so trying to support them as a leader through those processes is really, uh really interesting right now. And um thank you. And we know that in workplaces right now we have Gen Z, which would be those um kind of youngest members, millennials, um Gen X, which so I'm a Gen Xer. um

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Julie, I think you're a Gen Xer. I am an elder millennial. Elder millennial, okay great. And then we also have even some boomers or if they're not in the workplace, I think a lot of their workplace, uh you know, of policies and structures might still be reflective of that generation, right?

05:00
So interesting to really think about, okay, we are spanning four to five generations in today's workplace. um So Julie, what about that same question for you? So how are you seeing these multiple generations and understanding and awareness kind of showing up in workplaces that you've been a part of?

05:23
Yeah, I definitely think the younger generation has uh made some breakthroughs just in terms of what their like their sense of self um and who they're bringing to the workplace and what their expectations are of the workplace. And, you know, and obviously it differs from person to person and their personal backgrounds and the supports that they've had throughout their lives. But I certainly think with the changes that have been made to end

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education and also uh supports in community for persons with disabilities that's allowed younger people to certainly have uh a stronger sense of self and an awareness of their needs and the ability to advocate for themselves. And I think that that's also really uh helped older generations self identify and then also begin to question

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what you mentioned earlier, Cory, about those systems that have been designed by previous boomers uh and that we're still uh experiencing in workplaces that continue to create some barriers, unfortunately, and misunderstandings and um not necessarily as supportive as they could be. Whereas I think that that younger generation is really challenging.

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the norms and those expectations, but delivering it in a way that allows for some conversation, creativity, some innovation in all the ways that will just make the workplaces and the team stronger. I love that you bring in the word creativity even in your introduction. You're like, have to be really creative in how I work around maybe some of the things that are a result of

07:20
some of the more chronic conditions, for example. em So we know, of course, that there is a big shift happening, right, from seeing disability through the lens of a medical model where the issue is with the person, it needs to be fixed, to then the shift to the social model where really the barriers are in the environment. And how are you seeing that shift play out, kind of in your workplace, Laura, like... um

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from what ah you talked about younger people coming in with a lot more knowledge, maybe some older people just becoming more aware. What are some other ways that you're seeing kind of these shifting things and also the kind of the, whether it's the tensions or the possibilities between the generations? Yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of my work, there's always, I work in community work and

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I think that tension between the old model and approach to work in and of itself um and this new approach around flexibility, adaptability, accommodations, um work-life balance, all of those things that I think are coming with the tail end of millennials in Gen Z. um

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are wonderful and like so needed, but I think they often butt up against that older version. And so sometimes that's in just the ways that people are showing up at work is in like what their expectations are, but also in the ways they carry themselves through that space. And so there's often a lot more vulnerability from younger people, a lot more honesty and openness about.

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kind of what is happening for them on a day-to-day life. And I think as a manager, I really try to support that type of culture. But I also think that it's sometimes, uh like we're almost like ahead of the game. And so there can be times where that is challenge or uh it doesn't quite fit into the rest of the structure that exists in our just, you know.

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working. And so I think that that goes the same for their needs and their accommodations and their supports. uh And so really trying to find ways that you build it in based on what people are asking for and creating structures that allow that to happen. So can you give us an example of that? What does that look like building it in based on what people are asking for? I do a lot of learning. I do a lot of learning and a lot of listening. uh I think that

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uh trying to find ways that I just ask individuals as they're working, kind of right away what those needs are. And that might be like, I need more time while I'm doing a task. It could be that I need very specific written instructions. I need very clear timelines. And...

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then I think that also looks like how do I give myself the skills to be able to respond to those and that's an ongoing learning, right? Like I think that's why I talk to you often. It's like I don't always have all the answers, but I'm willing to try and I think em that goes a long way for a lot of people to just know that there's someone on their side who's willing to go with them as they walk through it.

10:48
Yeah, in a previous episode we talked with Stuart McKelvey and one of the things their HR rep talked about was like not making assumptions and asking the question, you know, like what do you need? What do need to thrive at work? I think what's harder is when people know they need something but don't quite know what that is. And so I actually do have quite a few people who are in that exploration phase and

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trying to figure out what those supports may look like. And that is a little bit more challenging from my side of things to know how do I support someone as they're figuring out what their needs are versus someone who comes in saying, okay, this is what I need. I've already done all the work. I know I need these tools to help me succeed. So I imagine that again creates a little bit of tension where someone's like, oh, I know I need something or this isn't quite working for me.

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And so how do you navigate that? I try to be the person who names it. So I don't leave it for them to be like, you know, to feel like they're failing. I really do try to say, you know, do you do we feel like it's working um or maybe, you know, we're spinning our wheels here. How what do we need to get out of this? And often that comes back to a much deeper conversation about what's really going on for them. And I find that.

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being able to build relationships of trust that allow people to be honest about, um know, actually I haven't slept in three days because of this thing that's going on or I just got this diagnosis and I'm trying to navigate the supports around it. That gives me tools that I can use to help create a pathway that might just be, okay, now I know when we can bump that deadline back or. um

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let's just continue to have the conversation. And I think that it really just rooted in curiosity and the questions. And Julie, we know that many people still mask or hide disabilities at work. Like, why do you think, um you know, this like lack of disclosure or psychological safety kind of remains so hard to achieve even as we're building awareness?

13:10
Well, I think that's the key piece there. You just said it, psychological safety. uh I think it's easier to say than it is to do. And workplaces really have to make an effort to create that atmosphere, that environment that actually allows for people to disclose and then work through what it is that they need. uh

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It's such a big piece. And I think that that's actually kind of the learning curve edge where we are right now, right? Like psychological safety can't just be a buzzword. It actually has to be something that we learn to do with professional supports and make an effort as um leaders, management, and teams um to work towards that together.

14:02
So that takes effort and that takes commitment um on behalf of the uh employer's part. em And just to kind of spin off what you were saying there, Laura, em how it is that employers are able to respond to people's needs, particularly when people themselves might not know what they need when they're still figuring it out. um

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And often, you have a job description and you read the job description, you're like, oh, I can do that, no problem. um But when it actually comes down to doing those specific things, you're not taking into account all the exterior um forces at play to actually do that work, um even if it's from your own home environment, um as I sit here now, or if it's an actual um workplace environment.

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there's still challenges no matter what. um And that's where I think like when I talked about getting professional help. So first of all, um what C Change CoLab has been doing with the ACE training and offering uh free trainings and very low cost trainings to employers throughout regions.

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um has been really helpful and I think it's really helped particularly in Nova Scotia to kind of raise the bar a little bit, know, raise everybody's level of awareness and knowledge um in order to be able to even say, I don't really know the answer to that, but I'm going to find that out. um And then one of the other things that I've done is I've accessed an uh occupational therapist um for like for myself in my own home environment to, you know, kind of help set me up.

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physically, but also mentally to create awareness around what my needs are in terms of even breaks. Because as somebody who can hyper-focus and go down that rabbit hole, I could sit and do this all day. So I actually need reminders to say, get up, leave, go walk around, shake it off, and then come back. But what I would love to see is work

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places actually embracing opportunities for occupational therapists to come in and assess entire workplaces and team needs and come up with a strategy. So that way it's not left to managers who don't necessarily have the knowledge em or the capacity to do that, right? We can't be expected to be all things. We can certainly be expected to be open and helpful and curious and supportive.

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but we can't be expected to be experts in this field, which really is still just developing. um that would, you one takeaway from this conversation that I would like to contribute certainly is for people to really reach out to those occupational therapists. If your organization, company has benefits, you know, that can be covered through the benefits.

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um And also in terms of training, it's an investment that will pay you back um handsomely, you know, uh with your employee culture. I love the idea too, Julie, of like an uh occupational therapist or someone like really assessing a whole team or a workplace versus like, okay, as an individual, I'm going to go do this and I'll learn this thing.

17:40
Because, similar to you Julie, know I will work through my lunch and I know it's not great for me, but I tend to just, yeah, the hyper focus. um And then sometimes because I'm the leader, even though I'm m folks in my office, no, no, don't do as I do, right? Do as I say. I do the same thing. But they see me doing that.

18:08
So really really important. really stood out for me once where I had a staff who said I don't think I've ever seen you eat. And I was like you've worked with me for over a year. I was like, oh no, this isn't good. And I just said, of course I'm eating. I'm just eating in between all the other things you don't see me. And I was like, oh no, I am really not showing that. And Julia, so like, I don't know if you saw me do that big like cheer when you said, you know, have other

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professionals, I think that it's really hard when you're supporting a team to feel like you're the person who is creating all of it. And uh some of it is just out of scope or above our knowledge and experience. And so really wanting to have options to have people get the support that they need. And I love that idea of occupational therapists coming in and supporting a whole team.

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or even a whole department in what they need uh because I think that that is the direction we need to go. And we've been having a lot of conversations in my team and uh at the organization around psychological safety and it is so big and it feels sometimes like how is it possible to do all of those pieces for...

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you know, our organization has over 250 staff right now. So, you know, how are you creating that? And I think there's steps of yes, be open, be great listeners, you know, be curious. But again, I think it needs that wraparound support from a professional to really make it stand and be sustainable. Yeah, because one thing we know in workplaces is like, you might be really skilled as a manager in being open, you know, confidential conversations, curiosity.

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not making assumptions, but, and of course managers can be trained to take those approaches, but unless there's uh accommodation policies that are clear, know, pathways to accommodation, unless there's like proactive accessibility throughout the organization, then it really comes down to how skilled is the manager, which a manager can leave. uh You know, you can shift roles within an organization.

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And so someone saying, yeah, I don't mind if you work flexible hours. Or yes, of course, you need to go to medical appointments or whatever to support you. That might shift when you shift managers. So that idea of, how do we um ensure that no matter where the person works in the organization, no matter which manager, no matter which team, that they're still receiving a similar um approach?

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similar policies, similar practices kind of across the board. uh And I think that like Julie, you're raising a really important point that it shouldn't be the onus, well, yes, employers have responsibilities, the duty to accommodate and to provide that, that really needs to be at more of an uh organizational level and not just kind of the work of individual managers.

21:16
And I think what I also heard you say there, Julie, is like, you, if it isn't there, I mean, because they were going to, it'll take some time for organizations to get there. But if you have benefits, you yourself can go as an employee and sort of access those as well. And that's not something I was thinking about or encouraging the staff to do. And I'm really going to take that away from this, this conversation and do a little exploration with our team around like what's out there. So.

21:45
That's really good. um And from the conversation we had with Stuart McKelvey, one thing they talked about was starting benefits day one, right? So not waiting the 90 days. And then they put a lot of focus on wellness and a wellness fund and mental health support, which we know again that, you know, mental health is one of the highest and also the fastest growing.

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kinds of disabilities in Canada, but in Nova Scotia. And so how does that, what does that look like at work? And then how are our employees getting support?

22:27
The other thing that I'd like to mention too are employee resource groups. em again, Laura, do you have those since you have such a large staff with over 200, yes? Yes, and we are developing it constantly. um And I think some of our work across the programs and our organization are similar and then others are different. And I think as we're growing, we're kind of figuring out

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how we do that in our own teams, but also across the program. So yeah, absolutely. But it feels endless. And you can feel like, OK, I've got it. It's good. We've got all kinds of really good things in there. And then the next month, it's like, here's a whole other thing that we're going to add and explore. I think for us, em we actually call ours the Knowledge Nook. It's really great. And just finding the ways that we just keep feeding the info in there.

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And I think it's really like sort of the expectation of employee resource groups. um Really, it varies from place to place. um And again, what the capacity of the organization is. But if the organization can build time um into the workday and the culture and its policies for that um opportunity of employee resource groups to meet. um

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and identify issues as they pertain to that particular group and solutions and just be able to share um again in uh a safe space. um It can make all the difference. And with some of the work that I've been doing with municipalities over the past two years, um supporting them to... uh

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update and implement their accessibility plans. Employee resource groups often come up as one of the things that municipalities can implement as employers. municipalities in Nova Scotia can be very, very, tiny. Some villages only have like five or fewer employees. And so there's often, well,

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you know, the answer is, well, we can't do this because we just don't have the people. um And in situations like that, I would encourage people to collaborate regionally. um again, especially in areas, rural areas in Nova Scotia, we're so, you know, we're small communities, we're intimate communities, we are spread out. But, you know, again, there's that opportunity to meet

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because sometimes the regions are arbitrary based on our experiences. So I think in these types of cases, three or four units could get together and create an employee resource group. And I almost wonder if that's transferable to smaller businesses. for example, because I do a lot of business development consulting as well and have supported a number of

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business owners m who are persons with disabilities to launch, develop and launch their businesses or have helped them grow their businesses. um So sometimes as businesses start out as one person, but they still have um challenges in their own business sector to overcome. um And I can support them kind of to a point, but I almost wonder if like chambers of commerce.

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um might be able to create em these types of, you know, not necessarily employee resource groups, but business resource groups for persons with disabilities. em Or again, not-for-profit organizations, again, if they're small and only have five to seven employees, if there's opportunities to collaborate. And I know, Laura, so you were the bigger organization, but do you think that that's sort of a doable thing?

26:47
Is that an opportunity? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, no, I think that's really, really needed. I mean, we do have those, I think when I was thinking of it before, I was thinking of like tangible resources, but we do have those resource groups at our organization. And even um we're working, like the last one I put forward was the accessibility accommodation support one. And that's...

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in the works and so I think it doesn't really matter how big you are. I mean we are all working in this sector especially if you're in a region of like hell effects you know we could all be working together and figuring out the ways that we could do that and I'm having those conversations, I've essentially informally created one of those by just talking to other people who are doing this work because um

27:38
Yeah, we need each other. Like we need to all be lifting that bar and working collaboratively to figure out how to just support people the best we can across the sector. Yeah, and I just want to make sure I know we're using this term employee resource groups just so we kind of define it. So typically that would be a group within a workplace where, for example, people with disabilities or newcomers or, you know,

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you know, uh African Nova Scotians, people of African descent, for example, would have a space that is, um you know, a safe space to talk about their own experiences, uh maybe even to do things like review policy, for example. But I know there are some employee resource groups that are saying, listen, we don't want to give you feedback workplace. We actually just want a space for us to share with one another. So there can be different purposes, I guess.

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or goals of those employee resource groups. But Julie, I love that idea again of like how when you're in a sector or if you're in a small business or a smaller organization, what are the ways to build that so that there is some confidentiality or anonymity because if you're in a small organization like, you know, Sea Change Collab, we have five uh staff. And so of course we can't create a group, uh you know, of whatever it might be.

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uh but maybe across through a chamber of commerce or through something like that, that would be a really wonderful idea. So we've talked about sort of collaboration. I love those examples of collaboration across sectors. uh Do you, you know, what does collaboration or do you see examples of collaboration, for example, in your workplace across those generations? Are people learning from one another's experiences?

29:33
Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And again, I think it comes from a lot of people who are willing to be vulnerable. You know, I think if you're able to see someone else say, this is what I'm experiencing, this is what I need, and then see them get that support and be successful where maybe they were um stalled or struggling before, I think it gives you more confidence to be able to say, oh, I also could ask for that or I can see a way

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uh that it's there and sometimes it's as simple um as when you're setting up the structure of a meeting, what you put out on a table or where it's held or what you say when you come into that room and I think even from me as a manager I often think about like, um again I want to get ahead of it as much as I possibly can so trying to say things or do things or create this space that allows people to see like you're welcome here.

30:32
um Or have other staff who have you know said oh you can ask that or it's okay. This is a safe space or You know, we're all neuro spicy here or something, you know Like often that comes out in in the meetings and I think for newer staff or staff who are used to a more traditional approach to work that gives them more flexibility and freedom so then there's questions that get asked right and then there's um Resources shared and I'm constantly like

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here's a workshop, here's a thing. I send the links to all of your stuff and I think just really sending it continuously going and they see my learning too. So I'll bring that back to them and say, I was at this or I've just learned this or here's this thing. Yeah. And I think the key too is, it is embedding it within the organization and it not being a one-off or a one-on-one.

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kind of conversation, really needs to be embedded in policies, practices, approaches, but I think about your idea of the meeting. So the building blocks of our everyday workplaces, our meetings, emails, um what else would you add to that? Informal conversations. Meetings, informal conversations. how in every, yeah, kind of everyday interactions, ah maybe there's some, talk about policy or whatever, but in each of those things,

32:02
How can you think about embedding accessibility, as you said, into meetings? Where we're meeting, what we're talking about, what are we bringing to that meeting? And things like, know, policies, obviously having sort of an accessibility lens that you're reviewing and sharing information, making sure that you're sharing that in an accessible way. So it's those small ways of embedding it into the building blocks of our working uh life.

32:31
Is there anything that we haven't said that you'd like to share about your perspective on accessibility kind of across generations in workplaces? You know, I've just been so impressed with young people coming into workplaces and presenting at conferences and getting involved in committees. You know, because there are so many barriers, there have always been barriers.

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uh to persons with disabilities and then all of the other uh barriers on top of those based on your identity and experience in the world. uh So then we get that intersectional experience of how we uh show up and um are able to participate.

33:28
And I just, you I really think that young people are changing the dial. They're saying, you know, we're not, em you know, this isn't working and time's up. So, ah you know, here's the opportunity to make some changes. And I just, I just love that. I love that. I love that shift. But, you know, again, my neuro spicy brain is like, yeah, change. Great. Yeah, let's do it. And also.

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um You know, as somebody who is very justice oriented, um you know, I really hope that within our lifetime, my lifetime, we see real, true change and equity and, um you know, true kindness and understanding and compassion for everybody to be able to elevate all of the good things that we do on the planet because there are so many good things. um And I just, you know, I think there's a lot of inspiration and hope.

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in that intergenerational exchange. em And I really hope that workplaces give more young people those opportunities to step into roles where they can have an influence over culture and just open up those spaces. Great. Thanks, Julie. Anything you want to add, Laura? I'm going to call Julie.

34:50
I'm going to be asking, I'm going to get you to come and work with us and collaborate with us. mean, I think um for me, it's really about feeling like I'm not the only one and continuing to build that network of support for the people I work with. And that includes my staff and my colleagues, but also the participants and the clients that we work for. Right. I'm trying to make sure that we have networks that we can em support and direct people to.

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across the board. I do think there's a piece around recognizing, you know, it isn't one size fits all and they're so individualized uh across diagnosis or experience or need and so it really does require uh understanding and a commitment to listening to what people are asking for. m

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and what they need and that may change, right? It may change as they evolve and it may change as their understanding evolves. And so it's not a tick box, it's an ongoing conversation. I think building that into the new ways that we work is gonna be really important. like I said, raising the bar of how we all understand and do this is gonna be essential for the workforce that we have in the next 10 years to 20 years, right? Those young people.

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are going to need to come up and work in through spaces that support them and welcome them um and are created for them. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Thank you both for just your passion in this work and your openness to really, um as you've talked about, Laura, like that ongoing learning um and Julie, yeah, just recognizing that.

36:38
I always love the idea of looking to young people for, okay, what should we be thinking about now? Because of the creativity, thinking outside the box, et cetera. So thank you for that reminder. Can I give you one example that just actually popped up on my feed this morning? And I'm going to get the country wrong. It was, course, one of the Nordic

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European countries um that has just elected the youngest prime minister, a woman. um And one of the biggest sweeping changes that she's made is she's um made a four-day work week. And um that was taken into consideration for people's mental health. um

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And so it's just, this is the way it is, right? So again, that's a sweeping change from a young person coming into a position of power and saying, all the researchers out there, we know this works. We know it works for productivity. We know it works for, you know, for individuals, for families, for society, for culture, to not be working so much and to have more of that, you know, kind of human wellness time um and that space.

37:59
So, you know, to build better societies. So I think that that's a beautiful example. And I'm sorry that I cannot remember the country, but maybe before the podcast is aired, we can add that. I'm proud to say that at SeaChange, we, anyone who works full time, um works four days a week and gets paid for the full week. We've implemented that. And even as a business, because of the research and the benefits,

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It's just now, um you know, anyone, it's a policy that we have and that we'll continue to do. So love hearing that, you know, a whole country is doing it as well. Yeah. And I think that was also a six day, a six hour work day too. I heard that and I was like, should we all move there? Let's move there. That's what I thought. Awesome. Well, thank you both and we'll chat soon. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much.

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Bye, have a great day. Bye. Thanks for tuning in. You can learn more at our website, cchangecollab.com. That's S-E-A-C-H-A-N-G-E-C-O-L-A-B dot com. I hope you join us for our next conversation.