Accessibility Ally

Corrie Melanson 0:00
Welcome to Accessibility Ally. It's a podcast featuring guests with a range of disabilities and social identities. They share provocative ideas and challenge allies to disrupt ableism and I'm your host, Corey Monson. Thanks for tuning in. So on today's episode, we talk with Ursula and Erin, and we have a conversation about one example of neurodiversity. formal diagnosis versus self diagnosis, and even what some of the barriers are to diagnosis. What are some of the advantages of being a neurodivergent person in the workplace? So when our brains are wired differently, what does that mean in terms of our creativity, our ability to collaborate for example, and we really tackle the question, what do accommodations for Neuro diversity in the workplace look and feel like? First of all, let's let's start with you. Do you want to introduce yourself including any social identities you're comfortable sharing?

Ursula Mogensen 1:07
Yeah, sure. My name is Ursula. My pronouns are they/them. I identify as queer, gender fluid, neurodivergent, fat. I'm a knitter. I'm a Librarian. I am large. I contain multitudes.

Corrie Melanson 1:26
I love that you included you're a knitter and all of those things in there.

Erin Casey 1:30
And the knitting looks amazing by the way.

Corrie Melanson 1:33
Yeah. Like, will you be knitting as we're chatting?

Ursula Mogensen 1:37
Possibly, yeah.

Corrie Melanson 1:38
Okay, so what are you knitting? describe it for us.

Ursula Mogensen 1:40
I am knitting a pair of Rainbow socks, basically. From the toe up.

Corrie Melanson 1:48
Okay. Really great. Erin why don't you introduce yourself?

Erin Casey 1:53
So my name is Erin Casey, I am a middle aged woman and Corrie and I work together quite a bit. And I have a real passion for accessibility. I'm the parent of two young adults who are autistic and have other invisible disabilities as well. So I'm really excited to be here today and talk about this.

Corrie Melanson 2:15
So, fairly recently, it was released in Nova Scotia, that the the numbers of people with disabilities are now in Nova Scotia are now two in five. And so we in Nova Scotia, where it's like the highest rate of people with disabilities across the country. And I think that mostly when we think about disabilities, we think about visible disabilities, right? So folks with mobility devices, whether that's, you know, a cane or a wheelchair, or I don't know what else comes to mind when you think about visible disabilities?

Ursula Mogensen 2:54
Oh, well, people who wear hearing aids, other things like that, anything? Yeah, there's lots of different assistive devices that people use or assistive technologies.

Erin Casey 3:04
Yeah, I also think about and you mentioned hearing aids Ursula, which is an interesting one, because my son wears hearing aids, and they're visible, but not right? You actually have to, like really be peering at him to see them. And I would say too, in my experience, some disabilities become more visible as you spend time with the person. So a disability that might be invisible, at first, will become more visible over a period of time.

Corrie Melanson 3:35
Yeah and there's this big category of invisible disabilities. And, we know that includes so many things like chronic illness, and anything that falls in the neurodivergent category, which we'll be talking about. Also, I just interviewed recently, someone who is deaf, and so until you engage with that person that's really invisible. But also things like mental health issues. And just from past work, I've done even in post secondary education in Nova Scotia, what I heard from folks working in, in accessibility is that 80% or more of the students that they were supporting around accessibility issues, it was because of mental health issues. So it probably is that the invisible disabilities is really that larger category. Ursula, you talked about identifying as neurodivergent and tell us more about how you identify.

Ursula Mogensen 4:44
Sure. Well, I've known most of my life that I was highly intelligent. That was apparent when I was a kid in school and with the Canadian basic skills testing, and I knew also that I didn't really think like anybody else around me. That's been my entire life. It has been a struggle of trying to figure out where I fit in, or if I fit in. And figuring out why I struggled to do things that, quote unquote, normal people like, or everybody around me seems to be able to just do or know about. Like, I didn't get the rulebook for the game of life in many ways. So, that's been my experience. And it was very much an internalized experience for like the first 48 years of my life. Because I had no idea. I didn't really relate to any of the articles about things like ADHD. Because I had developed a really robust frameworks for my life so that I could fulfill all of the things that I was supposed to be doing, like, you know, getting assignments in on time meeting deadlines, I had strategies, and I had tools in place. So I felt like, that's not me. And then the pandemic happened. And all of that structure fell apart. And everything just got really, really hard.

Erin Casey 6:08
I'm curious, you talk about these robust frameworks that you developed? How much energy does it take for you to create and maintain those frameworks?

Ursula Mogensen 6:20
I was exhausted a lot. Living, honestly, well, I got some of them from my mom. One of them being, if I'm not 10 minutes early, I'm late. And it also made me kind of a prickly person, because I felt like I went to such a great deal of effort to be somewhere on time, that when other people were late, it felt like they didn't care about me, or they didn't care about my time. And yeah, so my friends in my 20s got very used to like, being very punctual with me. So yeah, it's exhausting. It can be alienating, unintentionally. Yeah, it was a struggle. Looking back at it.

Corrie Melanson 7:07
So what happened when the pandemic hit? No structure? And by that, do you mean in work? And like your personal life? Like, what, what did that look like? Or what did that feel like?

Ursula Mogensen 7:19
Well, one of the things I've developed like, that I think is actually really healthy is I have really firm work life boundaries. I worked for a lot of small businesses locally. And that's the owners passion. And they will spend every waking minute of their day doing that, and they profit from it. And then they expect everybody else to be as invested, except, I'm not seeing those profits. So I have to work another part time job on the side. So no, I'm not staying past five. So home is where I don't work, right. And that's very set in my brain, I can't - if I'm not scheduled to work from home now, and I have work that I feel I should do at home, I can't do it, my brain literally just doesn't let me do it; because it established that pattern early on. So I didn't have that, I didn't have the going out of the house and going to work. And I tried to maintain like a fairly consistent nine to five. But nobody else in my organization really did. They kept trying to call me at six and seven, and just kind of expecting me to be available. And I was also unfortunately working like two very different positions because I hadn't fully transitioned. So I had both like a physical location to take care of and staff and things to manage around that. While I was shifting into a broader, more regional programming based role. And wow, that was a lot. It was a lot. And without some of those structures, I lived alone, it was it was really rough. So I started therapy, because I finally had the time to do it in summer 2020. And I knew I really needed to. So by the time 2022 rolled around, I had been in therapy for about a year and a half, I was progressing and feeling really good about my mental health at that point, I'd figured out some things to do with my physical health that were also contributing to things like fatigue and brain fog and gotten that sorted. So when I came back from work after like a three week Christmas vacation, and I don't celebrate Christmas, so it's really chill for me, those three weeks are great. And everything was still just as hard and awful as it was before I was like, well, I'm feeling better physically. My mental health is on track. I'm not stupid. So what's going on? And then I think I did read an article that finally resonated, and so I was like, Yeah, I think this might be it. And so I went to see my doctor and we had one of the little quickie diagnostic tests. And it was enough for her to say yeah, I'm gonna refer you. I did not want to go through the public system because (a) I had no time to do that I was desperate, I needed something much sooner than that could happen. And (b) I luckily had a little bit of savings and investments, because despite being terrible with money, a smart decision is to get a financial advisor who takes your money away from you and then does smart things with it. So I had a little bit of a cushion that I could use. And so I went through a process of figuring out who might be a good fit. I always looking in particular for somebody who was queer or queer friendly, because that's important to me for my dollars to be going back into my community, but also, in like a diagnostic sense, I don't want to have to explain my entire life. Right? So going to somebody with some knowledge in that area or experience in that area is ideal for me. And so I found Dr. Barker at Kruk Psychology and booked in an appointment in February 2022. And in March went back for my results. And yeah, ADHD combined type. And also, he noted at the end of the report that he recommended further testing for autism spectrum disorder, and also reconfirm that, yeah, I'm gifted. So he called it twice blessed, I guess. But if you add autism in there as well, I call it now the triple threat. And I don't have a formal diagnosis there. But now that I am medicated for ADHD, wow, all of the the sensory and social kind of things that the ADHD was somehow masking really, really became apparent. And so I've just decided to accommodate myself as if I have autism. I can't afford to do another assessment right now. And honestly, I don't see a lot of value in it right now, it could actually be more harm than value to have a formal diagnosis there. And there's not really any support for adults with autism. Not anything really robust.

Erin Casey 12:26
So can you talk a little bit about the self diagnosis piece?

Ursula Mogensen 12:30
Sure. I mean, I do feel comfortable with self diagnosis, because I don't think the everyday person person is what everybody should be. But as you know, not what I am right now.

Corrie Melanson 12:54
Neurotypical is sometimes what people use, but I also think that might go away at some point. Because, you know, is anyone neurotypical?

Ursula Mogensen 13:03
I don't think so. I think everybody's neuro types are different. I think some just fall into broadband. Yes. And some follow in a narrow, narrower band.

Corrie Melanson 13:11
I like that broadband narrowband. Along that continuum.

Erin Casey 13:15
I have this whole thinking about neuro diversity. That it's certainly within the normal range of human development and experience. And I think 10, 15, 20 years from now being neurodivergent is going to be a bit like being left handed.

Ursula Mogensen 13:35
Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to see that actually, in terms of self diagnosis. Yeah, I think, again, I'm pretty comfortable with that, because I don't think neurotypical people wonder all the time, why they can't do things or wonder why they don't like to wear certain brand of socks or always have to wear the same shirt and pants style. Or like, I don't think neurotypical people wonder if they have autism. For the most part, right. And then some of the reading I've been doing recently, I think there was a study that showed that a really high percentage of people who, you know, use the same test that I'd taken and self diagnosed, they were right. They were correct. And also, frankly, I don't see any harm in accommodating myself this way.

Corrie Melanson 14:30
So you got this diagnosis, and you are on medication. You've said that's made a big difference. What were some of the barriers that you faced at work? Like before the diagnosis or even ones that continue?

Ursula Mogensen 14:50
Well, the big one is I do really struggle to maintain a longer term project. I'm really good at the degenerative kind of like phase. I am really great, at brainstorming, love that. I am your ideas guy. Then, the middle part is really mushy. I don't know how to figure out how to get from the start to the end. I can't, I don't know what that looks like. And so I don't know how to do things like that until I'm actually just doing them, which makes it really hard to delegate, because I don't know what needs to be done. And therefore, I don't know what I need to delegate and what I can't handle. And yeah, it becomes really overwhelming. And then when it becomes too overwhelming, progress halts entirely. And I go into an avoidant mode. So yeah, that is something that I think is a long standing pattern that I am working on breaking, or re-framing or reshaping. And I rely, for instance, on my manager, to like, have regular weekly check ins, and to provide me with like, firm deadlines and checkpoints and milestones, so that I have like something to strive for. If I've got something large, I reach out to her to help me like, chunk it out, like break it down a little bit so that my brain will find it more manageable.

Corrie Melanson 16:31
And was your manager open to that?

Ursula Mogensen 16:34
It was a really different way for her to work. And we had really long meetings every two weeks. And the other thing that I realized that I did in those meetings was that, sometimes I just need to talk about a problem, and I can talk my way to the solution. But I need to have another human there to do that. So yeah, the verbal processing is really, really useful for me, which makes me really good at things like collaborative work and communication.

Corrie Melanson 17:04
Erin is pointing at me, because because as I've been learning more about ADHD, I'm just like, oh, yeah, right. I'm pretty sure, if I did a diagnosis, everything you're describing is me.

Erin Casey 17:19
Yeah. Corrie and I were smiling at each other as you were describing some of the like, beginning a project. And I can relate to that, too. Corrie and I can go great guns at the very beginning. But, we do get stuck in the mushy middle sometimes. So that's very relatable and the idea of talking through is extremely useful and very relatable as well.

Ursula Mogensen 17:43
Yeah, staff I've supervised have struggled with that until they've gotten to know me a little bit. Because, I don't know why but neurotypical people don't believe me when I tell them things that they need to know about me. And one of them that I tell everybody is thinking out loud actually means what it says for me. So if we're in a meeting, and I'm throwing out ideas, you don't have to look terrified because it came out of my mouth, and therefore you have to do it. I want you to challenge me, I want you to tell me why it's a bad idea, or what parts of it you think might work, and the ones that won't. Right? So yeah, once people get used to that, we have some pretty lively meetings. And yeah, it can be really fun.

Erin Casey 18:27
But I was gonna say that I think it is really fun. Have your colleagues come to appreciate this?

Ursula Mogensen 18:32
Yeah, in some ways, they've seen sometimes how work can be accomplished much more quickly, if you just spend that time to talk through it with each other. A simple solution sometimes comes out of a discussion, or a chance in meeting, pop into somebody's office.

Corrie Melanson 18:50
I wonder how many people like during the pandemic were like, oh, here I am in my house alone. And now I'm not getting to have those meetings or to do those things in the way that I would do them. And then all of a sudden, they're like, whoa, what, what's going on? What's what's happening here? I'm kind of curious. I have no idea if there's any research out there on this at all, but kind of an interesting,

Erin Casey 19:14
I can imagine that research is happening about Yeah, probably. But so much of what we think of as creativity and problem solving is really the serendipity of what you're describing to .

Ursula Mogensen 19:29
And that is one of the things I do enjoy about being back in office and working in person. It was really important for the work that I was doing, to be accessible in that way to the staff who we were serving the public every day. Because yeah, it felt to removed to when I wasn't on site.

Corrie Melanson 19:54
What kinds of accommodations support you at work? So you talked about how having a manager who you meet with more frequently and some additional support in terms of breaking down project tasks? Are there other things that work well or really help to support being neurodivergent?

Ursula Mogensen 20:13
I mean, there's some physical setup that works really well. In my previous role, I was a manager, so I had an office with a door that I could close and I would put a curtain on the window. I had a white noise machine, which I don't like white noise, brown noise is better. I also, because again, if it's out of my sight, it's out of my mind. I don't file things until they're done. Like, I don't have to look at them anymore. So doing that in a virtual environment is tough. So usually, a dual monitor setup is a necessity, because I need to spread things out so I can see them. And the way that I work, I also task switch fairly frequently according to priority, or to interest or whatever needs to get done. Sometimes during the course of a day I'll take micro breaks. Sometimes that looks like doing work for a volunteer gig instead of my work work. I just need sometimes a little quick win, something I can start and finish within five or 10 minutes to sustain my interest in some of the longer or more boring work that I have to do.

Erin Casey 21:31
So tell us the truth about how many tabs you have open.

Ursula Mogensen 21:36
So on my phone, I think I'm currently under 100. But I did find out last year that if you go over 100 on an Android phone in Chrome, or if it goes over 99, all it does is give you a smiley face, it doesn't actually tell you how many tabs you have any more.

Erin Casey 21:53
Have you learned this? Personally?

Ursula Mogensen 21:55
Yeah. Oh, no, I've seen it. It's tried to put it in separate windows even, and be like here start a new window. It's like no one window, many tabs. However at work currently, I'm in a Microsoft 365 environment, and I was like, okay, fine, I'll use all the integrated tools, I'll use Edge. And there's some features on edge that I'm really enjoying, including the collaborative kind of workspaces in the browser, which when you close them, you can reopen them and all your tabs and everything that you were in the middle of is still there. So I have Edge browser collections, basically, for several research projects I'm working on. I have one just for general work. And then I have a personal one. And so I've got about a half dozen of those. And so I can contain all of those tabs. But literally in those six, there's probably close to 100 open tabs in there. Yeah, or more? It just depends on what's going on. Because again, I open a tab and I leave it open until I'm done with what I needed to do with it, and then I close it.

Corrie Melanson 23:11
So you've talked about working from home and working in the office? And what about like, just that kind of flexibility? Is that something that helps?

Ursula Mogensen 23:21
It does! Absolutely. I got pretty burned out last year. And so I started a new job in the middle of summer, which has been really great. But still, I have been taking advantage of the two out of like five days to work from home. Because I realized that as much as I do prefer working in an office with people, I do need a couple of days a week where I can take a huge chunk of decision making out of my day. And working from home allows me to indulge myself the night before and stay up a little later, which always feels like a treat. And I get to sleep in a little later, I get to have a more leisurely cup of tea out of an actual mug instead of a contigo when I'm checking my email. And I don't have to make decisions about figuring out what to bring to eat during the day. I don't have to figure out the best route using my GPS in the mornings to get there. Like there's so many micro decisions that happen just to get me to and from work that having a couple of days a week just to eliminate all those has been kind of a nice kind of rest.

Erin Casey 24:36
Can you talk a little bit about why relieving all that decision making is important. I understand, but I I don't know if everyone would.

Ursula Mogensen 24:47
The key there is that I am making decisions all the time. None of that is able to become habit for me. I have to think about everything. Um, yeah, basically, the minute I get up, I start thinking about the next thing that I have to do. None of that really happens on autopilot. Unless I've really, really trained my physical memory. Which I have a really good physical memory. But I don't know if it's innate, or it's because I've trained it. But yeah, people with ADHD, I don't know if they either struggle or lack the capacity to really develop habits. And that, again, made a lot of sense to me, like, in reflection, because yeah, I do something, and I feel like it was really reasonable. Like, I would do 10 to 15 minutes of yoga every morning, before work. And I would be able to sustain that for three months until bam, spring time change happens. And suddenly, you know, my day rhythm, like circadian rhythm is all thrown off, and I miss a day and then I never do it again. But most people would be able to miss a day, and then get back to it. I miss a day and my brain goes, Oh, we're done with that. And it's more of a struggle to fight that, then, than anything else I've found.

Erin Casey 26:20
Yeah, I think a lot of neurotypical people probably would listen to what you're saying and say, well, do you have to think about every decision? And yes, indeed you do. Right?

Ursula Mogensen 26:31
I do. Yeah.

Corrie Melanson 26:36
What advice do you have for workplaces or businesses around understanding what someone who you know what someone needs? Who is neurodivergent?

Ursula Mogensen 26:46
Understanding that just because you've done it a couple of times, it doesn't mean you get to stop, right? So if I tell somebody, I need really direct communication, and very clear, and I also need a lot of context, to help me understand, I get that for like, the first couple of times. And then they think, you know, most of the time, they're like, Oh, well, they've done that a few times now. So they must be able to write and a neurotypical person would, except I'm not neurotypical. And I still need that, it's consistent. Yeah. And the other piece is be open to having to try different things. Because especially when somebody is first figuring it out, like I'm still it's about two years in, and I'm still figuring out things, and I probably will, for the rest of my life. Understand that you don't do one thing, and it works, and it's the magic fix, and then you don't have to try anything else. I think that's really important to understand. And that's yeah, it's, it's important, because sometimes, especially if you change workplaces, sometimes the tools that you used in one workplace won't even work with the next workplace, because again it's different work culture could be different role entirely. So yeah, that is really great. But I think also, workplaces need to understand that if they can accommodate effectively, they're going to get an employee who is creative, who, because of the way their brain works, maybe doesn't see, you know, fine detail, but they can see the big picture, like they've got that 30,000 foot kind of scope already. And, you know, in terms of pattern recognition, that pulled back kind of view, allows them to see that. So that there's a capacity for that, that I think is really important for them to understand too. If they can, you know, be flexible and patient and like accommodate effectively, they're going to have somebody really valuable on their team.

Erin Casey 29:02
How does the invisibility of your disability affect you at work?

Ursula Mogensen 29:08
Hmm. Well, when I first meet people or join a new team, or work on a committee, because it's invisible, I have to make a decision about disclosing or not. And depending on circumstances that is more or less comfortable. Then I might need accommodations for the work that we are doing. So yeah, it's just it's a little bit of a tightrope to walk. But yeah, I don't know.

Erin Casey 29:44
A disclosure conversation. That just may be a whole other conversation.

Ursula Mogensen 29:48
A whole other conversation for sure.

Corrie Melanson 29:51
How do workplaces create sort of more safer environments, safer processes for people to disclose? Even I had a conversation with someone this week who has a very visible disability, but also because during COVID, of working online and continuing virtual work, they still have to disclose even though so they've never had to before they use a wheelchair. Before the conversation, I thought, wow. Okay, that also really shifted the dynamic around disclosure. So what gives you hope for a more accessible future in in our workplaces, in our communities?

Ursula Mogensen 30:36
I think the thing that's giving me the the most hope, honestly, it has come out of the pandemic is the flexibility to work from home. We realized that we can do it and that the people who are asking for that for years, knew what they were talking about. And broadly that mean, it feels like things that are being put in place to accommodate people who are neurodivergent. I think that other people are realizing, Oh, I think I would like that as well. And I think that works better for me than this other framework I've been using. So I think everybody would like to work in an office where they didn't have glaring, harsh overhead fluorescent lights, but could control the lighting in their own little cubicle or office. Right?They would, you know, like to be able to have the sound level and distraction level that best suits them. They might prefer to have a sit stand desk as well, so that they can move around more during the day.

Corrie Melanson 31:44
And can we also just say that knitting should be definitely allowed, like all meetings, and in all work spaces? And maybe playdough?

Erin Casey 31:54
As a perennial doodler myself and creating works of art during meetings. Yes. Like, I spent a lot of my life with people thinking I wasn't paying attention, or that I wasn't listening, or I wasn't engaged. And, of course, we know is not the case.

Ursula Mogensen 32:08
Oh, yes. I doodle everything on everything. But anyway, I had the same experience,

Erin Casey 32:16
What advantages and strengths do you bring to the table in the workplace?

Ursula Mogensen 32:22
So I've got a lot. I think, because of my neurodivergent brain, I've had a really unconventional career, like life path, basically. I have done a lot of weird, weird jobs, and cool things. And I bring a lot of life experience with me to anything, which was incredibly worthwhile. While I was working as a librarian in public library, one minute, I could be talking about air compressors, and what somebody was looking for, to compare, because I had experience like working with those. And then I'd be off showing somebody where the craft books are, and advising them on like, the best authors for whatever project that they were working on. And then I'd be you know, doing some readers advisory or finding somebody the next TV series to watch. So, basically I bring a lot of life experience with me, that can be transferable or applicable to pretty much anything else that I do. I learned really quickly on the job. And again, I think that because I see, the pattern recognition is really good. I can walk into a new role, kind of learn and be in it for a month or two and then be able to say, Okay, but what if we did it this way instead, and then it would eliminate this step. Like I find ways to improve or make things more efficient. I've used that skill, like working like piecework and factory lines. I was good at figuring out where the bottlenecks were, and figuring out how to adjust for them. I knew I could judge how fast people could work. And I'd like say, hey, why don't you come over here? Yeah, so there's that and like, I'm also really creative. And again, yeah, ideas guy. I love to say yes. I also think I'm a great manager, because I don't want to be micromanaged. And I don't micromanage. And I think it's also partly due to the fact that I don't know the details of your job. I can barely hold on to the details in mind half the time, and you're competent, and you can do that. And I'm going to trust you to do that. And I'll be here to talk about whatever you need to problem solve.

Erin Casey 34:58
And people respond really well to that type of management typically.

Ursula Mogensen 35:02
yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I'm managing new staff, I'm assuming that the people who hired them previously, hired them for very good reasons. And as I get to know them, I usually find out that's true. I'm rarely proven wrong.

Erin Casey 35:17
So I like that idea of your presuming competence. I am sure that in part comes from your own experience, yes. That you know, you need people to presume your competence. And, you know, have faith in your ability to support you.

Ursula Mogensen 35:32
Exactly. Yeah, I've had to prove myself competent in many areas, but I really quickly do. And it has made me more compassionate, I think. So I'm a very empathetic colleague, or supervisor. I don't want anybody else ever feeling like the ways that I felt. So I do my best to set everybody up around me to be their best.

Erin Casey 35:59
If people listening could take one idea away with them today, what would you want that idea to be? You can have two if you want.

Ursula Mogensen 36:08
Only one? I've never good at only one. Um, yeah, the one idea I would love for folks to take away is that productivity is not the be all and end all. And there's different ways to approach the way you work.

Erin Casey 36:30
Yay. Oh, I love that. I love that you said that. Yeah, yeah.

Ursula Mogensen 36:34
Productivity, in terms of living with an invisible disability, I find it can be really harmful concept. I think our value as human beings is to be the best human beings that we can be and have the best human experience while we are here. Do I think going to an office like nine to five, five days a week is like the best use of my creative talents? I don't, I don't, the world is missing out on a lot of stuff just because I have to do this to survive. I think it's really important for everyone to understand that productivity isn't your value. You have a lot of other things that you bring to the table that I think are far superior. Like, are you a really amazing friend, who would drop everything you've got to go and help? Can you organize the best, most fun potluck? Can you write an amazing story that will move me? Can you make a piece of art? Can you grow the best tomatoes? Can you love and be loved in return? And that is huge. And I think so many people struggle with just that. All of the corporate training that I've had around accommodation and disability in the workplace, even just this week, the reasons for accommodation, only seem tangentially related to the human being. They're supposed to be accommodating. The real pitch is productivity, which I think is bizarre.

Erin Casey 38:23
Yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't really thought very much about that. But I think you're right. Often, accommodations in the workplace or in school, are more aimed at, like, how can we make this person be more productive and be able to keep pace with their peers?

Corrie Melanson 38:39
Streamlining the experience!

Erin Casey 38:40
Yes. And it's not really about how can we support this person to having the best most fulfilling experience they can have, whatever that looks like for them.

Corrie Melanson 38:53
What gives you hope for an accessible future.

Ursula Mogensen 38:56
This is maybe not something that makes me hopeful for the future, but something that I hope for the future instead. Again, reflecting on my life, and the struggles that I've had, where I'm at, and where I could have been if I had access to psycho educational testing, when I was in elementary school. And so my hope and my wish, and my dream, maybe is that everybody gets access to that kind of testing, so that they can find out what their strengths are, find out where their challenges are, and then work with both of those things, rather than being forced to fit the same very narrow definition of what the normal is supposed to be. That is my big dream for the future because I found the psychoeducational testing fascinating, and I love learning about my own brain. It's really cool.

Corrie Melanson 39:54
Thanks for tuning in. You can learn more at our website, seachangecolab.com. I hope you'll join us for our next conversation