Accessibility Ally

Corrie Melanson 0:00
Welcome to Accessibility Ally. It's a podcast featuring guests with a range of disabilities and social identities. They share provocative ideas and challenge allies to disrupt ableism, and I'm your host Corrie Melanson. Thanks for tuning in. On this episode of Accessibility Ally, I talked to Vicki Levack. Vicki is a human rights activist in Halifax. She has a physical disability and uses a power wheelchair. She talks about the recent human rights remedy in Nova Scotia, and the advocacy work of the Disability Rights Coalition or DRC. Vicki shares her wit and humor, her political savviness and her fearless pursuit for Equity and Human Rights. So today, I'm really excited to talk to Vicki Levack, who is a human rights activist who focuses on disability. So Vicki, do you want to please introduce yourself for our listeners?

Vicky Levack 1:02
Okay, so Hi, I'm Vicki Levack. I also work with the DRC as their spokesperson.

Corrie Melanson 1:13
So break that down the DRC.

Vicky Levack 1:17
DRC stands for Disability Rights Coalition. It's a group of 32 disability rights organizations that got together so they could have a voice.

Corrie Melanson 1:17
So they represent a group of 32 organizations, individual organizations, the Disability Rights Coalition. So what is some of the work The Disability Rights Coalition does?

Vicky Levack 1:46
We focus a lot on disability in poverty and the effects of that. Most people with disabilities live 50% below the poverty line, I had a friend who once told me that her dream was to live at the poverty line.

Corrie Melanson 2:05
Wow. That hurts my heart to hear that just the idea that someone's dream is to live at the poverty line. So of course, we know that there are so many barriers facing people with disabilities; poverty, of course, being one of them. And poverty as a result of lack of employment opportunities, which is really what we're talking about on this podcast, is how can employers be more accessible, create more accessible workplaces and really be accessibility allies? So Vicki, what has your experience been like in terms of in your own life and accessing employment?

Vicky Levack 2:50
It's been almost non existent. In the traditional sense, I work for myself, but that's because I couldn't find a nine to five job or traditional jobs that will work for me. Mostly because of transportation issues. Access-a-bus you have to book a week in advance, if I had to be at the office for the same time every day, and I can't get a bus to take me there, I can't drive myself. So you know, if there were some days where I'm like, 'I'm sorry, I can't come into work today because I don't have transport.' Obviously, they're gonna fire me and hire someone who's more reliable, even though it's through no fault of my own.

It's been hard. My dad always told me that I was gonna have to use my voice and my brain to find employment. For example, the traditional jobs that some people can fall back like minimum wage jobs, I can't have that option. So I had to figure out something because I can't do physical labor. I would have to use my brain and my words to make a living. Fortunately, I haven't made enough to make a living yet, so I'm still on disability supports. But I mean, I'm also worried because if I make too much money, then those supports get lessened.

Corrie Melanson 4:29
So you can't make too much money when you're on disability support, because, to my understanding, is that you then receive that much less. And then, as you've talked about, that employment is kind of precarious, right? You're working for yourself. Maybe there are opportunities there one month, but not the next and you wouldn't want to lose those supports. So, you also talked about transportation and needing a week to book the Acess-a-Bus. So we're in the studio here at Podstarter, on Nora Bernard Street in the North End of Halifax, how did you get here today?

Vicky Levack 5:08
Luckily now because I live in an ILNS, it's an Independent Living Nova Scotia run Program, which is a shared service and a pilot and I can get into it later. But, my parents donated their van to the organization, when I moved in to be part of that project. So now ever since I have people who could drive, my father and mother donated a silver van so if I can't get a bus, I have a way to get around now.

Corrie Melanson 5:39
I imagine, so much more flexibility with that. So who drives the van?

Vicky Levack 5:46
Whoever has me that day! There's caregivers and if they have a drivers license, which not all the staff who work with me have drivers licenses, because not a lot of them have cars because we do transit. But, the ones who have cars and drivers licenses, provided they fill out the right paperwork on the ILNS insurance, they're allowed to drive.

Corrie Melanson 6:13
So we've talked about transportation, and I know that transportation is not just a barrier for you, but for so many people who have physical disabilities. And then you also brought up housing, and I know we want to dive into that a little bit today. Okay, so tell me about this pilot project?

Vicky Levack 6:40
It is still a pilot, Yeah.

Corrie Melanson 6:42
So, tell me about this pilot project.

Vicky Levack 6:43
Its is still considered a pilot, I don't know what it needs to not become a pilot. I've asked that question and nobody seems to know the exact criteria that the government is looking for in order to make it not a pilot. I would like to know that criteria if anybody in the government is listening. What do we have to do to show you that - it works? Because I've lived there for about a year, as have two other women next door and we're proof of concept that it works. So it's a success story. What more do you need to make it not a pilot?

Corrie Melanson 7:24
So tell us about the housing setup, where do you live? Of course, not the address, but just like what is the setup?

Vicky Levack 7:33
It's a condo building. Which I know are problematic in themselves. But I was lucky enough to have my own roommate. Her parents were independently wealthy, her parents already owned one condo that she was living in, they ran out of money to pay for her care. Her name was Jen Powley, so Jen Powley and Carrie Ernst from ILNS, and her team there, came up with a business plan. I presented it to government and, the government approved it. I think one of the reasons government approved it and agreed with me so fast, was the court hearing for the Remedy (Remedy in Disability Rights Coalition v Province of Nova Scotia), which I'll get into in a minute, but it really helped to push that through. So there's two condos. Jen's parents bought both. ILNS is in the process of buying them from her parents, but I don't know where we are on that. But anyway, they bought the two condos. The government put in a large amount of money, and I don't know how much, into renovations to make them more accessible. So, there's two women in one unit, two women in the unit next door and, each of us has a caregiver assigned to us every day, and every day it's a little different. People are assigned to different units. But then their job is to basically make sure I can do what I need to do. So, for example, the guy who was assigned to me today, he could drive, so he's like, 'okay, what are we going to do today?' And I was like, well, I need you to drive me to work. And then you can go do whatever, and come back. So, that's what we're doing right now. But it's basically when I need help with all of my own like ADLs - which is just Activities of Daily Living. So, bathing dressing, basically anything you need to do in order to live. So, I do need 24/7 care. That's what this model is for, for people who require attendent care 24/7 where they are. Just in case, because my body isn't made to work for me. My disability affects my hands, so I can't really hold things very well. So, if I drop something, I can't pick it up. Somebody has to be there just in case. Once you put me in the chair though I'm pretty independent.

Corrie Melanson 10:12
Where were you living before?

Vicky Levack 10:33
I was living in a nursing home at the age of 21 because the government said I was too disabled to live in community.

Corrie Melanson 10:42
Too disabled to live in community? Wow.

Vicky Levack 10:47
I know, gross. But now, with the court hearing and the Remedy, which I'll get into in a minute, their now saying "there is no such thing." That line of 'truly disabled' are these arbitrary lines. Anybody can live in community, if given the proper support.

Corrie Melanson 11:07
Anyone can live in community if given the proper support. So that is so key to your story, and your activism, that you've been doing for such a long time!

Vicky Levack 11:20
I started doing activism, just, for myself. So, that sort of activism started from like the age of 12, learning speak up for myself. And then when I moved into Arborstone, the nursing home where I lived at the age of 21, I thought, "Oh, this is a horrible mistake, somebody made a mistake, I shouldn't be here." And then I realized, no, this is exactly how the system is designed to work. I was not a mistake. I wasn't a mistake to work. Like this is how it's supposed to work. And I was like, I don't deserve to live like this! And then I looked around and was like, wait a minute, we're all living like this. I lived with a bunch of people in the nursing home, who, like me, did not need to be there! If given the proper supports, they could have been in the community. And a lot of them felt like it was their fault, because they tried to live in the community and it failed, only because the government did not provide the proper support. Its not their fault, it's the government for not giving them what they need. You know, they were scared when they heard about the Remedy to vote, certain places closing down. You know, they're like "no, I want to stay here because when I was living in the community, things went really bad." And I was like, that was before support was provided. It's not the fact that you did something in community that failed, it was the fact that they didn't give you the right support. So they're legally obligated to give you that support.

Corrie Melanson 12:56
Okay, so let's kind of dive into that. So the Human Rights Remedy... there was a court process?

Vicky Levack 13:05
It started in 2014. I was not on the radar at that point, which if I was, I probably could have got out a lot sooner. There were three individuals Beth McLean, Joey Delaney, and Sheila Livingston. Unfortunately, Sheila and Beth are no longer with us. They died. Joey is still thriving and living in community. Basically, what happened with the three of them, they were in the Nova Scotia hospital and were medically allowed to be discharged. But, there was nowhere to put them because of their disability needs. So, they stayed on a ward, in some cases for 10 years. Even though they were medically discharged, but because they had nowhere to go, they had to stay there. And they're like "hey, this is not good." And everyone was like, "hey, this isn't cool." So, they came to the DRC and they said, "Would you sign on with us?" For this this sort of lawsuit.

So the Disability Rights Coalition signed on?

Yes and they became a plaintiff, well, I don't think it was exactly a plaintiff, but like, they backed them up on it basically!

They helped provide legal support, so, when they first heard the case, the court said, "Oh, what's wrong?" We made the argument that it was systemic, this sort of discrimination. Because legally, they're obligated to provide social assistance. And in this case, they were not doing so. So, initially, the courts said "oh, well, it happened, but it's not systemic." So, every individual who's been wronged by this, would have to come forward and do their own case. We did the math on that, it would take approximately 150 years to get everybody help. So, we went back to court, to appeal court and said, "no, it's systemic." And they agreed with us that time, the Human Rights board. So, we won that on appeal. And then the government gave out a big press conference that October, saying, "yay, we would recognize what we did is wrong. We're not going to appeal this." And then in December, they're like, "Haha, just kidding!" And they tried to appeal to the Supreme Court to get it overturned.

Corrie Melanson 15:58
And when you say they?

Vicky Levack 15:59
The government. The Houston provincial government. And then they went to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court said, "get out of here with your nonsense" basically, refused to hear the case, rejected the case, it wasn't even heard. Then once it was rejected, I'm now happy to say we have a working relationship with the Houston government to try to implement the Remedy. We all got together, some representatives from different levels of government and disability experts, and people like myself, who are considered 'first voice,' which I think, when I'm in these meetings around the DRC, speaking on my own experience, depending on what they mean, for that time. We came up with a Remedy that both parties could agree to. And now we're working on implementing that Remedy, as a team.

Corrie Melanson 17:08
So I am going to see if I am getting all of it. The Human Rights Remedy was a legal battle that was won to ensure that people with disabilities can live in community with the supports that they need.

Vicky Levack 17:24
It's about access to social assistance and the need to accommodate, which the government is legally obligated to do anyway, according to human rights law. But they weren't doing this in Nova Scotia. We are the last province to rely heavily on institutions. Most places, institutions have been shut down, and those members who were incarcerated there are now living in community.

Corrie Melanson 17:56
I think it's really important that you use that word incarcerated.

Vicky Levack 17:59
It was incarceration. There's no bars on the windows and, we're not in cages, like in the traditional prison sense. But, you had to fight for everything. You had to fight for your personhood. I'm able to make my own decisions and when I first moved there, they tried to tell me, you know, when to get up, when they go to bed, when to do this, when to do that. You're literally here 24/7! So it shouldn't matter what time I go to bed, because you're going to be here anyway. So, you know, I sort of showed them, that people with disabilities can have autonomy, and most of them realized this, because I was unlike most of their clients. Most of the other residents, a lot of them had dementia or cognitive disabilities, which I don't have. At the end of the day, I was the youngest at the time that they had. They really didn't know what to do with me. I just sort of got thrown in there, and they were like okay deal with her. They told me different things when I moved in than when I did the tour. I felt duped and I'm still mad about it. The social workers who worked full time described it as a dorm room. And we would live in like a sorority, with a bunch of disabled folk who are my age. "They're just like you and they just need a little help." That was a quote and I was like, cool. That sounds dope. So I moved in, and it wasn't like that all, even a little bit. I called my mother and I said "Ma, I don't know what I did, but you gotta get me out of here mom. I don't like this." And she said, Okay, honey, you can come home, but you realize won't have a life here. I grew up in a very small town, there were 2100 people and so the opportunities for jobs and for companionship and like, that sort of stuff was here in Halifax. So she said "okay, I'm gonna give you a scenario. Treat it like it's a hotel, a really, really screwed up hotel, but a hotel." And she said, "you eat there, you sleep there, you make sure you're clean. But your life is not in there, your life is out here." "You just stay there because you need a roof over your head and you need someone to wipe your buns," and I'm like all right! Cool beans! Thanks, mom! And then that's how I survived the next 10 years. Now, during COVID, when we weren't allowed to leave legally. Other people were allowed to walk around their neighborhood, we were not allowed to do that. I understand that due to, you know, the level of omiss that was in a place like this, and most of the fatalities from COVID did happen in nursing homes. But what I didn't understand was, when everybody else was allowed to leave their homes, like when everybody else could go about their day and things started picking up again, I still wasn't allowed to go out. And I was like, that doesn't make any sense.

Corrie Melanson 18:28
That must have been really isolating.

Vicky Levack 21:43
It was and I told them if I have to continue to live like this, I will access MAID (Medical Assistance in Dying), because I cannot live like this. In order to go for a walk, I had to first call my lawyer to get her to be like "this is a human rights issue." Secondly, they had my lawyer, email, Dr. Strang for every time I wanted to go out, I needed basically a permission slip from doctors.

Corrie Melanson 22:11
From the Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Strang?

Vicky Levack 22:15
Yes. I think he's a little too busy to say "yes, Vicki can go for a walk tonight." Apparently, my dad spoke to his office. And then the lawyer spoke to his office. And apparently, Dr. Strang was like, of course she can go, does she understand the risk? Does she understand the rules? Both of those answers were yes. I was able to wear a mask, and social distance where possible, so he was like, "of course, she can go she's grown woman!" It was the same if I had to go to work, my lawyer would have to contact Dr.Strang and tell him the title of the event, whatever it was, and how would I get there.

Corrie Melanson 22:15
I'm just shaking my head because to anyone listening, can you imagine having to get permission to leave your house? Yes, even during, the pandemic. But, of course, there were restrictions, but nothing like that. I just think that what you're talking about is a complete lack of freedom. A complete lack was dignity of independence, any of those things.

Vicky Levack 23:38
When I started working with the unhoused, in September or October of 2021, they would tell stories about what being incarcerated was like, and I noticed striking similarities. Obviously, not exactly the same, but there were some similarities. I was like, well, that's creepy! I don't agree with the current cultural justice system anyway, but that's a topic for another day. But for some place where there are no criminals, and you're treating them very similar to criminals, when they're just people who are sick. Or who are old and need help? Or disabled? They didn't do anything wrong! Why are you treating them like inmates?

Corrie Melanson 24:30
That's a powerful question. Really powerful question. Why are you treating people, who just don't fit your system, like inmates? And not that we should, as you said, it's a whole other topic to talk about the carceral system. We won't go there today. The Human Rights Remedy is now trying to implement this legal framework to ensure that people have access to social assistance and supports and accommodations. And so how, besides your living situation, what other ways has the Human Rights Remedy decision impacted you personally?

Vicky Levack 25:21
What's giving me hope is, that, I got out. And people were like, 'you can retire now.' Yeah, you can go do something else. And I'm like, Excuse me, but there's approximately 200 people behind me, who require the same type of support, who are in my age group, who are in nursing homes in similar situations, right now. That's not including the people still living at home with their aging parents, or worse, little to no support, right in the home. So 200 people, just in the nursing home system. How many more aren't even named, or listed? Because we don't know they need help. Because a lot of parents are like, no, I'm gonna keep my kid out of that system, for as long as possible. And I would like to say at that point going into a nursing home was my choice. My parents did not force me into any of that. I just didn't want to live with my folks. I was 21, I was living in a very small town with no job opportunities. I wanted to move here, meaning Halifax. And in order to do that, I had to live in a nursing home, but nobody forced me.

Corrie Melanson 26:39
Right. But it also sounds like there weren't any other options. If you wanted to move out and move to Halifax, that was kind of the only option. That's what you had to do. Yeah. I appreciate that. You've been an activist for a long time. And while things have shifted for you, personally, you're saying there's still people, as you said, behind you. People that are still experiencing the lack of independence, the lack of freedom and dignity in their lives. So you're continuing to work on behalf of those folks.

Vicky Levack 27:11
Yeah. I will be sort of stepping back from the DRC, because I plan to run for office.

Corrie Melanson 27:19
Did we just make that official? Or has that been announced?

Vicky Levack 27:24
Yes, because I'm not officially allowed to. But I do have plans to run for city council. The election is in October. Okay, looking into getting a team together. So I can run and start collecting donations. As you need lots of money to run. And like I said, 'I is broke,' so if you know anybody with money who wants to fund me...

Corrie Melanson 27:53
Great. By the time this episode is released, we're gonna have some kind of link connected to a donation page. For sure!

Vicky Levack 28:03
I don't know which district we're gonna run yet. I'm still trying to figure that out. But I am going to run.

Corrie Melanson 28:09
Amazing news! How often have you seen people who look like you? In public office?

Vicky Levack 28:17
Not often, although more so recently. I know on council, since I've been following Council since the last election, um, most of them seem to be on the side of business, and not the side of individuals. That doesn't seem right. I mean, I know this is provincial and not municipal, but the provincial government, they just cut the housing budget by 20%.

Corrie Melanson 28:49
Wow. In the midst of a housing crisis?

Vicky Levack 28:51
Yes, so it's kind of gross.

Corrie Melanson 28:56
That's incredible. I know that your friend, she was also a friend of mine, Jen Powley also ran for council and you know, almost won. And so I hope that there's a lot of support for you in this process.

Vicky Levack 29:16
I think there is, I mean people said if I ran they would vote for me so, now I'm asking you, to if you're able to, to hold to that promise because it's not because Vicki wants power.

Corrie Melanson 29:32
Vicki wants power, let's be clear. Hahaha

Vicky Levack 29:34
I do but it's not for my own good. It's not like I want power because *evil laugh*. Like I said, the voices on council, I don't think are community centred enough. They seem to be very with the Spring Garden Business Commission and other business commissions, and the Halifax Chamber of Commerce.

Corrie Melanson 30:04
So you want to you bring that community lens, the activist lens, social justice lens.

Vicky Levack 30:12
This city just approved an extra $5 million for the for the police budget. When most people you spoke out at the public consultations, most of them said no, please don't pass this budget. And they did.

Corrie Melanson 30:34
So your voice is definitely needed. I think back to what your dad told you to, that advice to use your voice and use your brain? And obviously, that's what you've been doing for a long time.

Vicky Levack 30:47
Yeah, I'm 33 years old. I don't feel 33, I feel much older, because I am tired. But this is necessary work and I am fortunate enough because I have supports. To be able to use my voice. Jen used to say this about her life, and I can say for me it's the same, it's that, 'My life is a group project.' So that's true of everybody, but mine a little more literally. Nobody does things alone. Nobody! Self Made people, I'm like, Okay, you learn to work really hard. But you're not self made. It required other people to help you in some way!

Corrie Melanson 31:33
Of course it does.

Vicky Levack 31:36
Yeah, my life is a group project. So because I have those supports, because of the shared services pilot and a large group of people in the community, who support me in my work. It's now my job to pay them back by being their voice or making sure their voices are amplified.

Corrie Melanson 32:02
Absolutely! So like, as one person with a disability, obviously, you can't represent everyone with disabilities. But of course, you bring that perspective when for other people, it's not even on their radar.

Vicky Levack 32:20
People with disabilities are just trying to survive. So they don't have the energy or the time. Yeah, so like many people who are un housed, also experience disability. And so that's how I started working with the unhoused population, because that intersectionality is to do with their disability, which is where I was working anyway.

Corrie Melanson 32:41
Yeah. And so we're talking about a lot of those, like basic human rights like you know, the ability to live somewhere safe, independent, with dignity. You've talked about transportation, we've talked about employment. So what advice would you have for listeners who might be employers out there.

Vicky Levack 33:11
For employers?

Corrie Melanson 33:12
Yea one message?

Vicky Levack 33:13
It's one of the things we've learned with COVID, is that you don't need to go to your office to do office work! So you should allow people to work from home, especially if they have a disability, or require childcare. Yes. And typically, people think that when I say that, especially when I went to interview for jobs, they would be like, well, "we don't know about your accommodations," and they are worried that what they have to do, it might be expensive. So my message to them is, if I couldn't do the job, I wouldn't be applying. And that's true for everyone.

Corrie Melanson 34:04
And so really great messages. And really, what we know from research across Canada, is that 50% to 80% of accommodations cost less than $500. But there's this fear out there, from employers that 'oh my gosh, if we hire someone with visible or invisible disabilities, if they've disclosed, then oh, no, what are we going to need to do?' But like there is a duty to accommodate. And I'm just not sure a lot of employers either know that or, again, choose to leave their assumptions at the door, and their bias at the door, of those like interviewing room.

Vicky Levack 34:46
if you can't work passed that bias or sort of put it at the door. Don't be in that interview room. I don't care what your bias is. If you have bias that it's gonna affect your ability to pick the right person for the job, you should not be at that hiring table.

Corrie Melanson 35:05
I'm gonna say something maybe controversial, but we all have bias. And so I think it's not not having bias. I think it's being aware of what our biases are. And then making sure that we're accounting for that bias. Because really we all have them.

Speaker 1 35:21
Yes, there's a level of bias. People say out right, they've said to my face, like when I went through a volunteer job at theCentral Library several years ago, teaching. I didn't need a teaching degree, it was conversational English for people with English as their second language. And you could just sit and talk to immigrants and non native speakers. And that's great! They learn English. I learn about their culture. It'll get me out of the house, yay, community building! And then I went in for the interview, and no word of a lie, the interviewer told me, they wouldn't hire me, because my disability would make the immigrants uncomfortable.

Corrie Melanson 36:05
So here we have this award winning accessible library, but maybe some of their practices. In terms of who can volunteer, again, as you say, they're bringing their disability bias and that ableist perspective.

Vicky Levack 36:22
Not just that, but most of the people who work with me to, to help me with my life are immigrants. Yeah, they don't seem to have a problem with my disability.

Corrie Melanson 36:33
It's also making huge assumptions about immigrants and refugees, and what they know about and also what what will make them comfortable or uncomfortable. So kind of bias all around there.

Vicky Levack 36:43
On both accounts, and maybe I don't want to work there anyway. Yeah. And then I looked it up, to see if I could sue them. Because that's blatant discrimination, but because it's a volunteer job. I can sue them.

Corrie Melanson 36:56
I'm laughing because of course, you looked that up, Vicki, of course, you were like, What can I do?

I don't want to happen to anybody else.

Yes, exactly.

Vicky Levack 37:10
What do you have to do to go volunteer at the local library without being told you make people uncomfortable? Simply by existing?

Corrie Melanson 37:19
Yeah, that is not okay. No, I like the word that you've used through this podcast, you've said 'gross.' So I'm gonna say that now. That's just really gross. And so Vicki, what gives you hope for a more accessible future?

Vicky Levack 37:34
Well, I mean, I'll be honest, even though I work in collaboration with the government, I personally, it's gonna take a lot for me to trust the government again. And I think it's going to be the same for everybody in the disability community and their families. But we are working collaboratively now. So that gives me hope. And also that this is court ordered. Because we've had over been saying, "We'll do better, we'll do better, we'll do better." And then they 'kick the can' down the road. This remedy, they have for five years, and to be complete in four years. Ther'es already been a year of work. So in four years now, by 2029, it has to be all implemented. So there are on a timeline, where they are legally ordered to do so. So, that gives me hope that they can't kick the can down the road because there's a piece of paper that's got a bunch of legalese on it that says, "You can't do that."

Corrie Melanson 38:44
I think I asked you something before we started the podcast, and you're like, "Yeah, I read the whole human rights remedy," but that was a lot of legalese. I'm like, okay, great. We don't need to talk about the legalese.

Vicky Levack 38:56
Although on the DRC website, now, there is a plain language version. There, there is the legalese version, but there's also a plain language version, that our friends at inclusion candidate did. So, it's so the DRC website.

Corrie Melanson 39:14
So on the Disability Rights Coalition website, there is a plain language version of the Human Rights Remedy.

Vicky Levack 39:23
The legalese version as well, if you'd like to read that, they're both available.

Corrie Melanson 39:28
I wonder which one gets read more?

Vicky Levack 39:31
I know, right! I know when the plain language version came out. I read it.

Corrie Melanson 39:38
Yeah. Because again, that's another topic for another day, how plain language is absolutely an accessibility need for sure. So Vicki, I want to thank you for chatting with me today. I am happy that you feel some hope and that you're tentative about the trust, but that you see at least that there's some inkling towards building trust, through collaborative community building.

Vicky Levack 40:06
Absolutely. Just before we leave I wasnt to also acknowledge that today is International Women's Day as we're recording this. So Happy International Women's Day!

Corrie Melanson 40:15
Happy International Women's Day to you. Thanks for tuning in. You can learn more at our website at seachangecolab.com. I hope you'll join us for our next conversation.