Accessibility Ally

Corrie Melanson 0:00
Welcome to Accessibility Ally. It's a podcast featuring guests with a range of disabilities and social identities. They share provocative ideas and challenge allies to disrupt ableism and I'm your host Corrie Melanson. Thanks for tuning in. On this episode of Accessibility Ally, I talked to Liza Arnason. Liza is the founder and chair of the board of directors of ASE, which is a community foundation for black Canadians with Disabilities. We'll learn how ASE centers Disability Justice and the unique experiences of black Canadians with Disabilities. Liza brings a unique intersectional perspective of gender and race that is often absent from conversations about disability.

Well, I really appreciate you joining us. I know you're coming all the way from Jamaica. Today, I hear like the bird chatter in the background. I just wish I was there! So maybe I'll just start with inviting you to introduce yourself. And usually when I do this, it's for you to share who you are in all of your social identities that you are comfortable sharing.

Liza Arnason 1:19
My name is Liza Arnason. I'm a mother, a grandmother, and a champion of equity. I am a black woman with disabilities. I have resisted the challenges, barriers that have been systemically and intentionally built to create barriers for my community, and women and persons with disabilities. I've lived my life this way, either working in community or volunteering, as Assistant Dean at U of T, Community Students and International, teaching at Ontario Tech or Ryerson, or in my own business, as a consultant, that honest and consulting. I have lived it, and always committed to my values. And in those values, isn't just to live it and talk it, it's to operationalize the change. So, whatever it takes to operationalize the change, all the things I've done in my life research, policy, presentations, conferences, traveling the world, whatever it is, that has the same outcome; it is to change culture around the conversations around disability, and particularly, to create change culture, around those conversations on disability, blackness and race, at the intersection of other identities such as gender and gender identity.

Corrie Melanson 2:45
Thank you so much for that introduction. And so you work for an organization called ASE. And can you tell us a little bit about the organization and the the mandate or the mission of ASE?

Liza Arnason 3:01
Thank you. Well, I'd have to correct you to just once, I am a volunteer, okay. And I'm the founder of ASE, Community Foundation for Black Canadians with disabilities. The organization came about as many people in my situation who had not asked for accommodations, as that strong black woman. In some cases, it's seen as the aggressive black woman, but we don't embody nor carry the symptoms, the look of some of these disabilities. And so we tend to be disbelieved, and also the disbelief in these myths that come from the enslavement of black people. And the intentional treatment that we've had through healthcare; first, as subjects without anesthetic, and then as being not being believed. And then moving to that, 'we have a higher threshold of pain,' is that 'we're always trying to get away with something,' which is all stemming from the stereotypes and discrimination embedded in our systems and our hearts in Canada. So we formed, because we realized, that when we go and ask for accommodations, or we finally go through that journey, as anybody with a disability has, finally accepting it; and finally, coming to a point that you need to ask for those accommodations you have the right to; when we do, we're not believed! It's a very traumatic experience that many black women with disabilities experience many indigenous women experience, which turns us further away from wanting to disclose. So we decided, let's not allow more women and more gender diverse people and more black people with disabilities get turned away. Let's create an organization where our mandate is to change culture across all communities, including the black community. In itself, colonialism has stirred very strong anchors in ableism. We want to dismantle the systems that continue to create these disparities. We know the system stems from colonialism, and they're all built in. So we know capitalism is the source of colonialism, is the source of everything. And in a capitalist world, you're valued by the work you produce. And anybody can see across Canada, those that produce or those who look good in the suits, those that seem like they're getting by well, and they're doing well, those are the ones that are valued. So if you have a disability, if you're black, if you're a woman, if you're indigenous, along with all of those other things on top of it, that means we're not as valued. And part of the systemic illness that comes from colonialism is the devaluing of women, the devaluing of disability, and that we're worthless, and the devaluing of black people, as they're not human. And all of those things converse, and make us want to challenge it.

Corrie Melanson 6:03
So I hear you talking a lot about some of the intersectional impacts. And so can we unpack that a little bit? So for our listeners, how do you define intersectionality?

Liza Arnason 6:16
I love that question! And, you know, it's not often we get asked what intersectionality is, to me. Intersectionality has been a part of the black woman's experience from since we can remember. If you were to go back to enslavement times, there's women talking about it. Everybody knows who Harriet Tubman is. That woman at the Underground Railroad, the mother of the Underground Railroad, Harriet Tubman had a major disability. On top of that, she was a black enslaved woman. And she used her resistance against those systems and policies and laws to bring about change, even if it was individual by individual. It was the defiance in it that brought about change. So when we think about intersectionality, we want people to understand it's not a new term by Kimberly Crenshaw; the concept has existed across black people's lives, for centuries. We just don't have the seat at the table, or the space like you're giving me today, to actually explain that this is inherently built in us. Not everything about black people, is negative. This is built. And I, I don't use resilience, because resilience is an individual thing. I know that my community has resisted, I know that women have resisted, I know that people with disabilities have resisted. And when we all come together and understand how those things interact together, making things a little more challenging for others, that's where we're gonna get the most change. So each of us in our little silos can do our work. But if there's rights for persons with disabilities, those rights in the last 30 years have excluded black people. Just like the women's movement, excluded black and brown people, women, and transgendered people, even today. So what intersectionality is, is a collection of different identities that are based on power and privilege. So it's not just, we're all different, like the humanist perspective, it is specifically based on the concept that we have systems in place, that are controlled by power and privilege of certain groups to define the value of others. And those on the margins with the intersectional identities are the ones that are often not in control or in power. And that's where and why we get left out.

Corrie Melanson 8:50
So I've heard you describe yourself as a as a black woman, a woman with a disability. And what I've heard you say is some of the impacts of your intersectional identity are things like not being believed, being left out. Are there other specific impacts and that you've experienced? In terms of your intersectional identities?

Liza Arnason 9:18
Do we have all day? Sit and have a nice cup of tea at this time of the day? Let's have a glass of wine, okay, have an unraveling. But really, here are a few. Let's talk about employment. Let's just have a conversation about employment. It's already extremely challenging for women to get upper-level leadership roles. So I had a path of wanting to go into upper-level leadership roles. Already as a woman, I knew I had half the chance, then you add the disability and we know the employment outcomes, whether I'm highly educated or not. We have higher unemployment and underemployment than anybody else. So now we combine that, and then they see you as a black. And all of the stereotypes, all the discriminations, they're feedback is often like, 'doesn't fit, not ready.' Other things like, 'women are not really leaders, you know, you can't give too much work to people with disabilities, we're not going to put her on that committee, because it might be too much.' And then we end up on all the equity committees, which do not carry any promotional status, they do not carry extra points on your performance review, or when you get a raise if you're a manager. So we're doing all this extra work. Every committee, especially if you're the only black person, the only disabled black person, in the organization. But yet, we are given nothing, there's no extra honorarium, we're not paid accordingly for that lived experience. And when it comes down to getting a promotion, changing careers within an organization, that's not as valued as sitting on a Housing Committee, you know, or new building committee; and that is a problem, because it's part of the culture and society to say, 'disabled people can't take those things on.' Black women, you don't want them because they're too aggressive.' You know, and 'women, they can be too emotional.' And so when you look at that in the context of employment, not only is it going to be hard getting the job, but as you do career advancement, or career mobility, the chances of that, and the chances of you disclosing and then getting more progressive, is slim. It's like, 'I'm sorry, I haven't seen it.' Actually, for me, it was the end of my career. And because those three things, we're seen as a specific type of identity, I was not believed. And, when you're not believed, as a person with disabilities, it is very triggering; especially when you've gone through that 10 year journey, accepting it, being able to talk about it, being able to use some of the medication or whatever, getting treatment, and then finally going to an employer and saying, this is where I'm at. Because employers don't understand when we ask for accommodations, it's the end of the road for us. And that's what it's like to be a black woman.

Corrie Melanson 12:31
Because you talked about disclosure earlier. And we know there's a disability dilemma, in terms of disclosing, especially if you have an invisible disability. But, what I'm imagining as a white woman, hearing about your intersectional identity, that this dilemma, is even more. There's more risk, as a black woman that you are disclosing when you're talking about your disability at work.

Liza Arnason 13:07
It's already risky, just just as a woman, it's already risky as a black woman. And if you're an immigrant woman, you know, and we know this by salaries, we know the salaries are still not equitable, as they are at the top for white men. We know women are still between 68% and 72% of a man's salary. Then you keep going down and you see disability, where it further drops. But if you look at black and indigenous women, we're between 54% and 62% range of the equal salary for the same job. And I have experienced this, I've asked for an organization to do pay equity, because every person that was hired with less experience, less education, less background, they were hired for more than me. And so I had to advocate for myself. And I also brought up to a government organization, government agency, I think it's time to start to look at pay equity for for disability. Right? They look at gender, they don't look at race, but they need to look at disabilities.

Corrie Melanson 14:20
Are there other barriers that you've faced?

Liza Arnason 14:23
Oh, let's have another conversation, your business! So we know that persons with disabilities have one of the lowest uptakes of unemployment, but it's still high considering it's within that community. So across the board, it's really low, but within the community finding entrepreneurship as an outsource has become a survival technique for persons with disabilities. And so it's been more common, particularly for marginalized black and indigenous people, to do more of the Solidarity Economy; as we can't get access, as black women with disabilities, to loans. No one's going to trust us to give us money. They still get this idea that an entrepreneur is a white man in a suit, or a white woman in a suit that runs a high business. I like social enterprise. And that's not as valued either. So we're not getting access to the grants, we're not getting access to the loans. Others are getting them even, black folks. But people with disabilities seem to be lower on the list. Because, they feel that we are not a good risk. So I would love to look at a bank assessment to see how they define risk. That would be an interesting exercise, but I would challenge the banks to go back and look at that. Because, as an entrepreneur, you can't get that to start. So you know, where we land? We land on our kitchen tables, our dressers. Our businesses are survival. And that is survival because you never know, when you're going to lose your job because you've been sick for three weeks. You never know, when you finally need an accommodation, you're not going to get it and then they're going to fire you. You never know when the job ends, because you know who gets fired first? Usually its those in the margins. So you always have this thing in the back of your head. And so for me, you know, some of the work I was doing, I never thought it was entrepreneurship work. And then we realized that it is, when we did some lit reviews; we're doing a lit review for a research project on black disabled entrepreneurs, because there's nothing in Canada. But what we found is across the board in the global south, and the north, persons with disabilities, have been using different types of entrepreneurship, that's not valued, because they can't get into the market of those that run companies unless, they don't disclose their disability. Because women on the margins have big problems accessing and scaling up. That's the number one problem for women in entrepreneurship, scaling up, not running multimillion dollar companies. We're just trying to get ourselves off our kitchen tables, and organize community groups of women and trans people and black people and disabled people working together to try to build each other to move up.

Corrie Melanson 18:01
Yeah, and so I hear you talking about just some of those barriers, like the lack of a safety net, some of those structural supports, things like loans, things like grants opportunities, when it comes to entrepreneurship. And, there are those structural barriers that really, as you said before, that don't create the opportunities for people with disabilities, but also those with intersectional identities.

Liza Arnason 18:30
And I have to add, two things that are also missing for us. One is coaching. We don't see a lot of these programs in the community. They're not actually coaching a person with a disability. Maybe somebody with neurodiversity, somebody that needs that extra ADHD coaching support. They need somebody to work with them every week, not programs, that have you listening to people that are already successful, and they're millionaires, that doesn't work for people with disabilities. It's not that we're not motivated. And I sometimes feel it's insulting. It's not that we don't have skills. It's not that black women with disabilities don't have the skills, it's that we aren't in the room at all. They definitely talk about getting a seat at the table. We're not even in the room, and most of the time, we're not even in the building. And I have an analogy of what it's like to be a black woman with disabilities. You know, you talk about the stairs and the steep stairs for women trying to build their lives. And you know, those steps are even steeper and ridiculous for women with disabilities. And you know, white men get an escalator ride to the top. This is my black feminism target. And then what happens to racialized black and indigenous women, both black women and indigenous women have to prove that they belong on those stairs. And most of my life has been not belonging on those stairs. But now I have to build a ladder and push the ladder up against those stairs. And each step on the ladder, each piece of wood I earn, I prove it, somebody gives it to me, because now they think I'm smart, or now they think, Well, that was great. And I build it with a hammer. And then I step higher, and I keep going. But it's a ladder. So the ladder is shaky. And all it takes is for somebody not to like what I say, not to like what I do, and kick the ladder. Sometimes you fall off the ladder, sometimes it shakes and a few things break and you have to go back, redo your reputation, prove again. And it's like women, we're constantly proving at work that we belong there. But if you're black, and if you have a disability, you're on a treadmill that never ends. And so I use the analogy of the ladder against the steps. And if you have a disability, you don't even get a ladder. So, they're trying to build an elevator. Here, imagine what it feels like to have all of those things happening. When you see white women without disabilities reaching back now on the steps and pulling people up, pulling women up. They're not pulling us. And there is a few and I had some great mentors that did that for me. But I still always remained out of that building. I mean, on the ladder looking through the windows.

Corrie Melanson 21:47
What a great analogy!

Liza Arnason 21:49
So when you think about the glass ceiling? No, there's no glass ceiling for us.

Corrie Melanson 21:56
Because you're still on the ladder.

Liza Arnason 21:57
I don't ust the analogy because we're not even in the damn building with the ceiling.

Corrie Melanson 22:00
Yeah. And that must also be exhausting!

Liza Arnason 22:06
Oh, well, that brings us to the next problem of being who we are. It's emotionally exhausting to be in a space where you're always under a magnifying glass, which is what critical race theory talks about. But black people, and indigenous people are heavily monitored. And then as women, you know, that we're heavily monitored, and they're just waiting for that weak moment to say, she's weak, or they're weak, right? And then, there's that perception of black people being not very smart, aggressive, pushy. And you combine those with the value, the way they talk about people with disabilities, the way they talk about people; all the stigma. And you can imagine how exhausting that is every day. So you make a choice. Is this the day? Which thing are you going to hear? Which thing are you going to advocate for, and which are you not? And when you don't, how are you going to deal with that when you get home? Because you carry it. And that's why coaching persons with disabilities, and people with intersectional identities is so important by people that represent those identities. Because unless you have that journey, you wouldn't be able to support. So these mentoring programs, where you an entrepreneur as a mentor, unless that mentor has a disability, or has worked specifically with a lot of people with disabilities, or has intersectional perspectives on how race interacts, that person couldn't mentor me. And that's where we're going wrong as well. We think that the best business owners can mentor. But actually, I find sometimes those that are scaling up their business, those that have businesses as consultants, but work full time. Those are awesome mentors. Because they've lived it.

Corrie Melanson 24:01
Right. Yeah. And thank you for sharing. I really find that analogy very interesting. Because it's not just the escalator and the stairs; it's the escalator, the stairs, the ladder, the elevator, like, just really understanding the barriers that exist and those layers of barriers, right. So I appreciate that. What gives you hope for an accessible, inclusive, or equitable future? What gives you hope?

Liza Arnason 24:34
Hope is a hard word. Okay? I mean, if you suffer from Post Traumatic Stress or, mental illness, hope is the thing you struggle with. Just your hope of something will get better for yourself. So it's hard, you know, we have those diagnosis and then think, what's the hope for a place that resists you every day? We live in an environment that resists me, who I am as myself, every day, where's that hope come from? When I started this, and you asked me about intersectionality, the hope comes from being on the backs of my ancestors, their intersectional experience, their ability. Soldier truth, is a poem that says, 'ain't I a woman,' she was enslaved. And she was fighting with the separatist movement, the suffrage movement to include black women. And she gave a speech. And you can read it. It's called, 'ain't I a woman,' and it is precisely intersectionality. And I am on those shoulders. I'm on the shoulders of Audrey Lorde, who talked about the intersectionality being black, lesbian, and disabled, in the 60s. There is no such thing as a single issue. Because we don't live single issue lives, right? And that's the same woman, that when I was developing my frameworks, in my undergrad at the University of Calgary, believe it or not, I had professors that let me write what I wanted to. Her speech that turned into a little paper on the 'Masters Tools' specifically the term ' we will never dismantle the Masters House,' is the framework of how I work. And that is how I start, and that is how I end, because intersectionality is my hope.

Corrie Melanson 26:45
And so this podcast is called Accessibility Ally. So I'm curious, how do folks who may not have identities like yours; white, neurotypical, able bodied, folks act as allies for people who might identify as black, disabled, women? What does that mean to you to have someone act as an ally?

Liza Arnason 27:22
We definitely need allies, we need you. That's the first thing. Don't be afraid. And I know through my work, and all these 30 years, that a lot of white people are afraid, a lot of black people are afraid to ask questions about the disability or to understand it more, it's easier to not get engaged. I'm asking you as an ally, not to be afraid anymore. If you make a mistake, it's only a mistake. And you know what, that's why you always hear, we grow from mistakes. Understand I've lived this as a mistake, I am the mistake. So if people in the margins, can live within it every day of their lives, you can be uncomfortable for a little bit, and do some soul searching and reflexive activities about what makes you uncomfortable. So that's one number to remember, it's an action. And so the action is whether I'm in the room or not. And if you hear something come up, or somebody's missing something, if somebody says something, and they haven't used an intersectional perspective, bring it up. I noticed that we haven't talked about intersectionality on the margins. Even if you're white, and male and straight, and all of that and you don't have a disability, you can do this, you have the most power in that room, actually, by doing it. Because people listen to you more than any of us. So I challenge those with that privilege, and that power to do it. I challenge you as an employer, as a teacher, as a boss, that when you hear something, do something. Don't leave it for your employees. Don't let them do it for themselves in the meeting.

Corrie Melanson 29:16
Talking about those concrete things like listening, centering voices, and not being afraid. I think so many people, based on what I encounter in my work, is so many people are afraid to make mistakes and to ask the questions that they might think, 'oh, that might be offensive,' or 'I'm not sure if I could ask that.' But if we just had some of those conversations, we would all learn a lot from one another. And I'm curious, what does ASE mean? So the organization that you founded, what does the name mean?

Liza Arnason 29:54
The name might be pronounced a little bit differently by somebody from Nigeria, okay. ASE, is how we pronounce it.

Corrie Melanson 30:00
I keep prounouncing it wrong. Sorry, ASE.

Liza Arnason 30:09
So what it means, what it is, is it's Yoruba, if you're Nigerian, and it has meaning now as an Amen. But, it has a indigenous, historical meaning, that means the ability to manifest something into existence. It's your mind and your soul, that you can manifest this change. So you say, so it will be. It's the ability that we know, as black disabled people that have never been talked about in this country, now included, that we will create these conversations, we will bridge this cultural gap, we will create an environment where black disabled people have the opportunity to work where they want to work, not work, if they can't work, or run a business, the way they want to run their business. Without all these systemic barriers and individual biases that we have to deal with. That's it, that's what's gonna happen, there will be change, there will be policy change, there will be change in benefits, there will be change in community, including the black community, will feel more open about talking about disability. The disability communities journey will include an intersectional perspective, and will understand and value and include us at their tables, so that we can work together for disability rights. That's what's going to happen. ASE!

Corrie Melanson 31:44
Yeah, that's such a wonderful name and a wonderful explanation. I think about here in Nova Scotia, we have a goal of accessibility by 2030. I know in Ontario, it's accessibility by 2025. And then in Canada, it's accessibility by 2040. And so I think what you just laid out is, what might that look like? What might people experience? What it might feel like in Canada, in Nova Scotia or in Ontario, that is really breaking down the barriers for all, not just for one segment of the population.

Liza Arnason 32:25
That's it! I also want to just remind people that a lot of the work that has been done in disability is not just white centered. It's also gender identity centered. And it's also based on the help model. Like we're here to help those with disabilities. So if you look at your organization's, which I have, because we like to do environmental scans, a lot of disability led organizations are not led by people with disabilities. Their boards are not majority disability, their leaders don't have disabilities. Some of these committees I mentioned, the chairs don't have disabilities. They're not racialized. They're not indigenous. And so we keep repeating this. I challenge people to look inside, see who's there and who isn't. Because who isn't there isn't just because we've missed them. There's a reason behind why we were missed. Maybe you're not comfortable inviting a loud black woman in like me, who's going to call you out, or call you in. And so we don't get included. Maybe you didn't like what I said about something else. So you can get more work done. Maybe I'm going to call you out because you're leading an organization for a particular racialized group. And you're not belonging to that community.

Corrie Melanson 33:59
I really appreciate you bringing your perspective. And certainly the challenge around looking inward as people but also looking at our organizations, who's leading, who's at the table, who's in the building. You know, where, how, are we inviting people? How are we ensuring that we're centering lived experience, and intersectional lived experience in the work that we're all doing. So I really appreciate the perspective that you've brought today.

Liza Arnason 34:36
Thank you for giving me a space to talk. Yeah, about my experience and experience of many people in our community. Remember, we all are individuals, we all have different experiences as well. But what I talked about was an overall general experience and mine.

Corrie Melanson 34:51
Right. Thank you so much!

Liza Arnason 34:52
Hope the rain doesn't wash you. All right!

Corrie Melanson 34:54
Thanks for tuning in! You can learn more at our website seachangecolab.com I hope you'll join us for our next conversation