Accessibility Ally

Corrie Melanson 0:00
Welcome to Accessibility Ally. It's a podcast featuring guests with a range of disabilities and social identities. They share provocative ideas and challenge allies to disrupt ableism and I'm your host Corrie Melanson. Thanks for tuning in. On this episode, we'll hear from Holly Green. Holly is queer, indigenous and deaf and lives in Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. Mae Striteman is Holly's ASL or American Sign Language interpreter. So we're gonna learn what ASL or American Sign Language is and how it differs from English. And we'll also hear Holly's perspective on what it means to be a deaf person in a mostly hearing culture, from an urban and rural perspective.

First, I would invite you to introduce yourself, so what's important for you to share about who you are?

Holly Green 1:04
So my name is Holly. I am deaf, indigenous, queer and disabled. I am also a new parent. And I'm on parental leave currently, which is allowing me to look deeper into my interests and what I'm passionate about. As you mentioned, I did move recently, I've moved to Yarmouth. And ironically, I've realized that Yarmouth has actually changed a lot since the last time I was here; they're more open minded, they're more welcoming. They're very friendly. And it's like, oh, you're deaf, you're disabled, okay, let's figure this out. And they're willing to work on it. So I'm actually looking forward to going back to work and figuring that out as well, because I used to work in the HRM, with the HRM students, whereas now I'll be more with the rural students. So getting their perspective, and what they've been raised to believe and learn, in the family perspective, for that. As for the indigenous community, I haven't quite gotten my bearings in that community yet. But I'm interested in exploring the diversity and the intersectionality around that and living here.

Corrie Melanson 2:25
Firstly, I'm curious about how you introduced yourself as disabled. I also know when we've chatted before that you introduced yourself as deaf. Those concepts, do you use them interchangeably? I also know some people who are deaf who also don't talk about being disabled, they claim more of that Deaf identity.

Holly Green 2:53
So for me I actually have another disability. So I would be deaf and disabled. Death is part of who I am. But it's also the fact that I am disabled. And that is also part of who I am. So I'm chronically ill. And that's just all part of it.

Corrie Melanson 3:15
Okay, thank you for clarifying that. And I know that when I've done work with groups across the province and have shared sort of the capital D definition of death, and people talk about, well, what does that mean? What does it mean to be part of Deaf Culture? Can you share a little bit about what that means to you?

Holly Green 3:44
So my point of view of that has actually changed throughout my life. Currently, where I am, it doesn't affect me whether if it's big D or little d. But if I am asked that, I do say that I am big D deaf. And I've done a lot of personal work. Because I'm working with deaf children, and teaching them the English, as well as the Deaf perspective, and community and language, and how those all connect in the world as a whole. So I have the experience of working with people who grow up speaking or just signing and not verbalizing at all, and it's like, well, there's so much variety, that it doesn't really affect me as much as it used to. For identity purposes. It's like yes, I am big D deaf for all those intents and purposes, but everybody's identity is so different that I don't see the biggest issues around it anymore. And then with work, I mean, I'm on leave right now, but I am looking forward to getting back to work and working with deaf children and allowing them to explore their own identities. And it's like, okay, well, I use sign language and I can't speak for myself verbally. So what does that mean for my identity? I'm deaf. They get to choose whether they're big D deaf or little d deaf, it's up to them, and I'm helping them figure out what they prefer. Knowing all that, if they asked me, then I don't mind expanding on the big D versus little d, and giving my experience and my perspective on things, to allow them to further analyze themselves and figure that out, while also navigating school.

Corrie Melanson 5:44
So just for like our listeners, can you sort of give an overview of what is big D, deaf, and little d, deaf? Like, what does that mean?

Holly Green 5:56
So big D deaf, for my understanding and my perspective, is culturally deaf. So you grow up with deaf culture involved in the Deaf community sign language is used. Having a Deaf gut. Little d deaf is usually used for people who have hearing aids, who have experienced deafness later in life. They're more drawn towards the little d.

Corrie Melanson 6:26
Yeah, I love that expression that deaf gut. It's like it's the central or core part of you. That's sort of how I relate to it. So I'm really curious about your experience. You've talked about being a new parent. And because your child is young, of course, they're not verbalizing at this point. Given your experience with with children, what's that like?

Holly Green 7:02
He is starting to verbalize...

Corrie Melanson 7:04
Given your experience with your own child, but with students as well, what are some of your thoughts around integrating students into a culture that isn't majority deaf or, your child, being in a community that isn't majority deaf?And I'm not even sure if that's the right term, 'majority deaf,' but you tell me what the right term is.

Holly Green 7:39
No worries. So my child, would be considered a Coda. So a child of deaf adults. My wife is hearing. And so Coda's tend to be part of the deaf community, they tend to grow up with sign language. And that's our plan. And already, I've noticed that he already has strong Deaf gut, like I can already start to see it. He'll scream for my attention. But, he'll scream louder for my attention, knowing that I have to feel it. Whereas if he's trying to get my wife's attention, or the other two children's attention, it'll be lower. And if he's with me, on me, he'll tap me to get my attention. And he's also starting to sign. So he's getting the basics of like, 'milk.' He is just starting. I've also noticed he's extremely observant, he's always looking at things, checking his peripherals, and taking in the world through his eyes.

Corrie Melanson 8:49
That's very cool. Just that you can already experience and notice that he has that deaf gut. Children are just really amazing in that way, right? So I know, you've talked about your work with students, and what do you do with students? I know you've talked about working in Halifax previously, and now you'll be working with more rural students. But what's your role with students? What's the job that you do and who do you work for?

Holly Green 9:25
So my role with APSEA, my title has changed several times, but it's coordinating educational approaches. So I haven't gotten the full scope of the newest approach, because we are starting a new approach that I will be getting when I get back to work, after parental leave. And I'm also an ASL Specialist. So I work with a referral program for language, accusation, culture, any 'by by' approach in regard to school. So figuring out the best approach to use for Deaf identity or deaf gut. So when a child is learning to read and write, you tend to learn through the use of your ears hearing it every day, in and out. Deaf students can't do that. So they're learning sign language and learning to read and write in English. So I'm there to support that process. And sometimes the students enter school and know only basic sign. So we support the family to help with that, because a lot of the time the family just don't know. So we have a support team for language and culture. And, I'm involved in that as well. My role is actually really cool. And it's so interesting to see the student gain that understanding, and once they have that grasp, to see them just flourish with it. As well as the schools and the families as well. They're also learning through it because they're on this journey with the deaf student. So it's like they're learning how to better understand their student or their child, and what it's going to look like from here on out.

Corrie Melanson 11:34
So great that you work with students, but also the broader family, and then kind of the school community and really integrating some of those ideas and perspectives and learning. There's a couple things you said that I need to break down for our listeners, right? So ASL, what is ASL? How is it different than English, for example?

Holly Green 11:59
So ASL is American Sign Language. That's the primary sign language used in Canada. There is LSQ, but that's Langue des signes québécoise, which is usually used in Quebec. And then regionally, we also have Maritime Sign Language. But most of the time across Canada, the primary one is ASL. So ASL and English are obviously different. Because English is a spoken language, whereas ASL is a visual language. So a good example is captioning on the screen. So if I didn't know English, having captioning on the screen isn't going to benefit me. Whereas having access to an interpreter, I get the visual grammar, I get the body language, I get the signs, it's all encompassed.

Corrie Melanson 12:58
Mae, would you feel comfortable introducing yourself as part of this podcast? Because I have a question for you as the ASL interpreter today.

Mae Striteman 13:05
Sure! So the voice that you hear for Holly is actually coming from me. My name is Mae Striteman. And I am an ASL English interpreter.

Corrie Melanson 13:21
You were telling me a little bit earlier today that ASL for example, doesn't have pronouns. Like are there other big differences like that, that you notice? Given that you're an English speaker and an ASL interpreter?

Mae Striteman 13:40
Pronouns is the biggest one, it's the easiest to recognize, especially now with English evolving and being more inclusive. For ASL, you set up your person, and then you just point to them. So they're just forever there. And you're like this person, it's always the same person. Whereas in English, you can't do that. One of the other ones is, English is very vague. We like to dance around the point. Whereas ASL is more direct. They're like, No, just tell me what you wanted. Just let me know. But those would be the two biggest differences.

Corrie Melanson 14:26
Anything you want to add to that Holly?

Holly Green 14:30
Yeah, English is vague, because they don't have the benefit of having the body to express things. ASL uses your entire body. You get role shifting from one to the other. You get grammar on your face, you get the whole visual of it. Whereas in English, you're relying on tone and effect and how a person hears this specific thing. And it's just all very vague and very hard, especially as a deaf person to learn. So even now, you can see that I continue to sign and then once I stopped signing, Mae is still voicing. And it's because a lot of the time English takes more words to express things than ASL.

Corrie Melanson 15:15
Okay, that's really interesting. I haven't really understood that before. And the idea of being able to use your whole body. So I think about, especially in written English, our workplaces, when we email one another, or when we text for example, sometimes the tone gets misinterpreted. And maybe it would be less likely for that to happen with ASL because you have, as you talked about the body language, facial expressions. Mae I'm just kind of curious. Holly, I was saying that I've only talked to you once before, but Mae has interpreted for you for quite a bit as I understand. So I also just wanted to turn it over to Mae; knowing Holly a little bit more, do you have any questions? Again, thinking about people listening to this podcast, who may have never heard the perspective of someone who identifies as deaf. I'm totally putting Mae on the spot.

Mae Striteman 16:28
Well, a lot of the time, I'm hearing people not understand how a deaf person would communicate with them. If they didn't know sign, and there was no interpreter.

I was fortunate enough to have an interpreter in school. And then I was mainstreamed in a hearing school. So I had an interpreter. But then I had to teach people how to interact with me without an interpreter. And then to have a conversation, it's better if it's just the two of us. And there isn't this third person, because people aren't used to having this third person. So it's kind of like a weird situation. I don't know, maybe Mae can help me out to explain?

Corrie Melanson 17:15
Well, tell me a little more about that.

Mae Striteman 17:17
So hearing people aren't used to having an interpreter. Deaf people have us for everything. A lot of the time for a deaf person having an interpreter they're used to a third person. They have that attitude of 'I don't care, moving on.' Where as the hearing person is less used to it and is more like, 'Well, can I say that in front of the interpreter?' And the deaf person is like, "I need to know it. So yes, say it." And the hearing person is always the awkward one. They're like, "I don't know where to stand. I don't know who to look at." So as an interpreter, we always just refer back to the deaf person. We're understand that hearing people don't understand that deaf people interact with hearing people every day. Like, every day, hearing people are like, "Oh, you're the one deaf person that I've seen ever. How does this work?" And definitely, it's not rocket science. It's okay. Just breathe.

Corrie Melanson 18:19
Just be yourself. Breathe, and maybe look at me when you're talking to me, right?

Mae Striteman 18:25
Yeah, exactly!

Corrie Melanson 18:27
Yeah. Holly, I'm curious about what your definition of accessibilityis, at work and in the community? What is included in in how you would define accessibility?

Holly Green 18:44
Accessibility is everything. So for me, it's a focus on something being accessible before we have to think about it. So if we think about theater, a lot of the time I can't go to theater, because it isn't accessible. Prior to, I have to be the person that reaches out and ask whether or not there's going to be interpretation at this production. So that barrier is already there. And then I'm the one that has to do the work to take the barrier away, as opposed to just not being there in the first place. Or, if we think of advertising, a lot of the time you'll see 'accessibility available, please contact,' and it's like, well, what if I didn't want to? Like why don't you just make it accessible for everybody, before the event happens. When companies and places do that, it's very rare, but I love it! Most of the time, the work is on me. I have to get my own means of accessibility and make sure things are set up for me to access them. So really, accessibility is having everything ready, prior to. Not making the person have to think about whether or not they can attend an event.

Corrie Melanson 20:07
What does it mean for you to always do that? For you to have to reach out and make sure that you can engage and participate? What is that experience like for you?

Holly Green 20:24
It's sad, and insulting. It would be nice to live in a world where everything was already accessible. And I didn't have to think about it; I could just go to this event, and there will be a sign language interpreter, or I want to attend a movie and there's going to be captioning. And it's just really saddening, that this isn't reality. And most of the time when I want to do something, this added work makes it so that I no longer want to attend. Because it's extra energy. It's so exhausting! And then when I do reach out, and they're like, "Well, I don't know how to do this," I have to lead them through the process, which is even more time and energy.

Corrie Melanson 21:13
For people who don't have disabilities, or for anyone who's listening who's asking, how could I be more of an ally to people with disabilities, in particular the deaf community? What would you say, is important for people to know?

Holly Green 21:36
There's a few community organizations within the HRM that are set up specifically to help with things like this. So this society of deaf and hard of hearing, Nova Scotians, they have an interpreting coordinator, and they have community interpreters available. So if we think about even having Mae, for Pride and queer events, so then you don't have to think about it. And for Halifax Pride, I am getting involved with them, hopefully, as a Accessibility Coordinator, and being more involved to expose them and teach them how to improve things. And once you start talking, like there are connections that can be made, and people know somebody that can help. An example is, I'm happy to help. I especially like the rural community, now I'm figuring it out. Like there's a lot of people involved in coordinating things. And then a lot of the time you hear that the rural area is not so great. For me its more about, who's leading this area? How can we change it?

Corrie Melanson 22:50
So what does it look like in your everyday in Yarmouth? You're out walking with your baby, you are getting groceries, you are doing all the everyday things, and you're encountering people who don't know that you're deaf. How is that? What does that look and feel like?

Holly Green 23:10
Most of the time, I will have the baby with me. So, a lot of the time people will come up to me to comment on how cute he is. And I'll just like point to my ear and then take out my phone and be like I'm deaf. And then they read my phone. They're like, Oh, you're deaf, okay, and then life goes on. And it's interesting, because when I lived in Halifax, the HRM, people were more awkward about it. Whereas now living in Yarmouth, it seems more easily acceptable and normal, which is a strange perspective. If we think about yesterday, I was going grocery shopping. So, I was in Walmart, and the baby was sleeping. And I was at the checkout, and there was an alarm happening. But, obviously, I didn't know, and I was just continuing, doing my thing. And somebody came up to me and started talking to me. And again, I didn't know what was going on. So I just continue to do my thing. And then they tapped me on the shoulder and they were like, "Oh, your deaf?" And it was like, oh, okay, and we adapted, we moved on. So, Yarmouth seems almost easier, and they're more willing to go with the flow than when I lived in Halifax.

Corrie Melanson 24:24
That's really an interesting perspective. I really would have thought it would have been the opposite.

Holly Green 24:30
Exactly! And I thought it would be the complete opposite before moving here.

Corrie Melanson 24:34
Yeah, I think that's all my questions. But is there anything else that you think is important to share with people who this may be their first time hearing from someone from with your identities and perspectives?

Holly Green 24:54
The main thing that I've noticed for Deaf and hearing relationships within the workplace or just life in general, is there's a lot of miscommunication because of cultural differences with the language. So, culturally Deaf people are a little more upfront and more blunt about things. And hearing people get insulted very easily. So English is like, 'Oh, we're just gonna make this really nice and easy to digest. And we're just gonna be super nice about it.' Whereas definitely in deaf culture, we're like, 'here's the point.' And that's just the way that we speak. It's a means of communication. We're not doing it to be insulting. That's just how our language developed. Like, I know a lot of time at work, I want that from my hearing counterparts. To stop beating around the bush, we're just wasting time. Just tell me yes. No? Good, bad; get to the point. Because a lot of time, we're waiting. We're waiting. We're navigating all of this fluff. And it's like, I just needed this one thing. So a lot of the time I'm like, "Oh, that was that was a little unclear, can we get to the point to make sure that we're on the same page?" And I find that is the most common issue that I've noticed, is the language and the culture, and differences interacting.

Corrie Melanson 26:34
Well, thank you so much, Holly, for chatting with us today. Really great to hear more of your perspective, being in a rural area, the work you do, and those everyday experiences that you encounter. I wonder Mae if I could ask you just about how did you become an interpreter and, why?

Mae Striteman 27:06
I was actually taking a break from school. And my mom informed me that I had to do something, as moms do. I couldn't take a full break. I had to find something. So I found a night class. That was once a week. And I was like, Ooh, I'm doing something! And so I took a night class. And it was probably six months, my teacher had asked us, and was like, why are you taking this class? And everyone had an answer. I didn't. I was like, I thought it would be cool. I was right! And then my teacher explained that I could make it my career. And I was like, what? People are gonna pay me to talk? And she was like, yeah, and sign. And that just kick started my journey. And that was 14 years ago!

Corrie Melanson 28:14
Yeah. Can you give us a highlight of the journey?

Mae Striteman 28:19
A highlight? For me, it's being involved in the Deaf community. And, their perspective aligns a lot with mine. And in school, we are taught to have a thick skin, because as hearing people we're insulted, and they're like deaf people are just letting you know, it's a fact. That's it. And it's like, if you have something on your face, they're just gonna tell you. So for me, that's the best part is being able to see the difference of the cultures and just being a part of it.

Corrie Melanson 29:31
Great. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you, Holly. We'll sign off and I'll be in touch.

Holly Green 29:40
Great. Thanks!

Corrie Melanson 29:43
Thanks for tuning in. You can learn more at our website, seachangecolab.com. I hope you'll join us for our next conversation.