Accessibility Ally

Corrie Melanson 0:00
Welcome to Accessibility Ally. It's a podcast featuring guests with a range of disabilities and social identities. They share provocative ideas and challenge allies to disrupt ableism and I'm your host, Corrie Melanson. Thanks for tuning in. In this first episode of Accessibility Ally, we talked with Paul Tingley, who has personal and professional connections to accessibility. We set the stage for the podcast series in talking about some of the highlights of accessibility work that's happening in Nova Scotia. As well as some of the challenges in how this work is rolling out. We know that there's a goal to be accessible by 2030 in Nova Scotia, and Paul brings his perspective as someone who's worked in communities, someone who works in the public sector, and someone who supports businesses in their journey to take action and learn more about accessibility. Tune in to learn about disability accessibility allyship, where we've come from in Nova Scotia and where we're headed to be accessible by 2030. So how are you doing, Paul?

Paul Tingley 1:16
I'm doing great. Thanks a little chilly out there. But all is good.

Corrie Melanson 1:19
So Paul, this is really bad. I'm like, Oh my gosh, what's your last name?

Paul Tingley 1:23
Tingley?

Corrie Melanson 1:24
Yes. And I knew that, as I looked at it this morning. I know, it's a good start. I didn't print my notes. So I'm really happy today to be joined by Paul Tingley. And Paul, could you please introduce yourself? And, you know, just share your personal and your professional connections to accessibility?

Paul Tingley 1:45
Yes, of course. First, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and help spread the good word about accessibility and where we're going as a society. But for me, what brought me into this was kind of a ski accident. But 30 years ago, I had a spinal cord injury, that left me paralyzed. And after that, I was 24 years old. And it was a new beginning for me. And I started my journey into having a disability learning about accessibility, barriers, and so forth. But I got into sports after that. All the different para-sports. I went to a couple of Paralympics, I chose sailing as my sport.

Corrie Melanson 2:29
Amazing. I didn't know that.

Paul Tingley 2:30
Oh, yeah, yeah, I went to five Paralympic Games, did a bunch of sailing, got my 10,000 hours in on the boats and stuff, feeling free out on the water. And then after I retired in 2016, I got a job with Sport Nova Scotia as a para-sport coordinator. So I was able to help build those opportunities for other people around and I learned a lot about the evolution of where we are right now. And what change is possible and why people don't change, I guess. And so then after I did parasport, for five years, I got a job with the province and I was a recreation consultant. And it was a designated position. So there, I was able to get in there. It's very hard to get into government sometimes. But I was very happy to be a Rec Consultant, and then after a year of that, I moved into the Program Officer for the accessibility programs, so we give out millions of dollars to community groups and a million dollars to businesses each year to reduce barriers.

Corrie Melanson 3:36
So, so many questions from just that introduction. So thanks so much for introducing yourself and telling us a bit about your story. So I guess first to follow up, just what are some of those programs that businesses do but also that the community is focused on?

Paul Tingley 3:54
So we have an intake on February 14, and we have an application, you know why? Businesses want to become accessible for whatever reasons, and there are costs associated usually whether it's the built environment, communications, or transportation. So what the government does is they'll pay two-thirds of that expense. And it's after a bit of a process to make sure that they're eligible, in good standing, and that they have the capacity to do quality work. And we are oversubscribed, three times as busy. Like we have 3 million in ask for the $1 million available with the community and the businesses. But only the 1 million applies. So yeah, we are lucky enough, this is the eighth year we've been doing this. And we've funded hundreds of projects. So think of all those barriers that are being removed through this program. And yeah, it's great. It's just getting the word out there and I think it could grow and really be a lever, a way for Nova Scotia to become accessible. This is one of the ways.

Corrie Melanson 5:06
Yeah. And certainly, I'm curious about the difference between that and like, community organizations. Are they doing similar things to businesses? Is it about built environment and communications?

Paul Tingley 5:17
It's close. There are the six standards, which there's legislation 2030, but we call them categories. So with the business, we have five categories, they don't exactly all line up with the standards, but they're very similar. And one of them is called universal design capacity development. So that one is really the most exciting for me, because usually a lot of them is the built environment, a lot of ramps, entrances, bathrooms, that's probably like 80% of our ask. But then you get these projects come along, and they try to do widescale like industry leaders training, like the Restaurant Association, or the Realtors Association in Nova Scotia. They're trying to like, look at what they offer and make it accessible to all. So that was the business with five categories. And then for the community, we are calling it accessibility improvements. It's so complicated how and where people are in their journey. They're looking at what's in front of them, what's being asked, and then they want to do better. So we consider all these asks. So we don't want to start pigeonholing into buckets. Where if it falls out of the bucket, and it's still a good project, what do we want to consider?

Corrie Melanson 6:31
Right. And I mean, it's really exciting to hear that there's funding, there's resources. And I know we will be and we are currently talking about the accessibility standards in some other podcasts. So no, we don't have to go into lots of detail. But certainly, Nova Scotia has a goal to be accessible by 2030. And the way the government is doing that is through those six standards, and I believe the built environment will be enacted this year. And then education and...?

Paul Tingley 7:01
And transportation, transportation is the next one after that.

Corrie Melanson 7:06
Thank you! So what's interesting is it seems like there's a lot of interest from community and business kind of even before those standards are enacted. Do you think that is because they know they're coming? Is that because people just understand that there's a sort of a moral obligation? Or that there's economic benefit? Like what do you think is the motivation for businesses and community organizations to kind of reach out for this funding?

Paul Tingley 7:35
Yeah, I think it's everything, you know, some people will do it because it's the right thing to do. It's human rights. You just want to make it a better society, removing barriers for everybody. They have empathy, they can see other people in their struggles and through a little bit of effort on their own, they can remove those barriers. Then there's the legal, which is legislation that's coming. So really, like you've got the moral, and then you have like the education of why this is good. And it can be very good for businesses, it's gonna get more people involved, it's better to have a diverse society, it's going to be stronger, more resilient. So it's really hard to know what their motivations are. We have the carrot and the stick. The carrot would be the education, you just realize this is the right thing to do. And some people, just won't see it. They don't know what they don't know. And it won't be until maybe there's got to be the stick, the fines or something like that, that it will shake them into action. But yeah, I think there are a lot of good reasons, whatever it is, we just try to make it easier for them and for it to happen.

Corrie Melanson 8:48
That's so great. So what does accessibility mean to you again, sort of personally and professionally?

Paul Tingley 8:55
Well, I had my accent 30 years ago, and I remember when accessibility was 'our' word. For people with disabilities, it meant wheelchair accessibility, because I was just being selfish, I guess, thinking about myself. But, it was always like, is that accessible? And then in the last 10 years, I think society has used it for, you know, general public access to goods and services, programs, places. It's all about like, 'accessible,' meaning like the location or the cost or the time of day. Is it like on the web? Is it accessible? Can you see it? So really accessibility used to mean wheelchair accessibility, removing barriers, but now I think it's more of a societal word. But really, all it is is kind of like removing barriers for all different groups. So everyone's got different impairments or disabilities or not. Building that space or program with the barriers removed; that's going to be accessible.

Corrie Melanson 8:57
Yeah, and we talk a fair bit in this podcast about how there are two in five, Nova Scotians who have a disability and knowing that those are physical, those are invisible, those are mental. There are so many different kinds of disabilities and knowing that those numbers have gone up in the last five or six years and likely will continue to rise. And I mean, sometimes people ask me the question like, What, why? Why does Nova Scotia have the highest rates in the country? And I honestly can't answer that. But over to you Paul. Haha

Paul Tingley 10:31
Good luck with that. I'm looking at someone? No, there's no one else here. It is very interesting. I don't know why it is. It's, yeah, I have no idea. We're above the national average, and definitely above the world's population. But like it's how you define it. And so you, kind of self-proclaim yourself as having a disability whereas in some other places, it might be a medical note and things like that. So I think that would be a reason why Canada has more than the rest, I would say. But, I think, yeah, we're probably the same as every other society around the world kind of thing, more or less.

Corrie Melanson 11:13
Then I wonder if like in Nova Scotia, we might have more of an aging population. And of course, I like the idea that we all will have a disability at some point in our lives. Yeah, I mean, even my journey in the last couple of years was just like, I had a brain injury and thinking about how that impacted my life. Some of the barriers that I faced and continue to face. Some of those, flexibilities I continue to need in my work life had a huge impact on me. And I see it as like a teeny tiny lens that I bring to this work, but kind of through that small pinhole of just a brain injury, for me, at least has given me my increased empathy, my increased understanding my increased desire to be an ally, when it comes to accessibility. And I feel like that that sense of people wanting to understand and to be allies is increasing. I don't know if that's your experience as well.

Paul Tingley 12:16
I hope so. It's, I think it's tough because a lot of people, while I was a parasport coordinator, used to always recruit volunteers and coaches to help athletes with disabilities and new programs. And it was really hard. And it's really a good example of becoming an ally. And people, they struggle when they don't know something. And, they tend to shy away from being involved, because they don't want to say the wrong thing or make it worse. So I think that maybe the biggest step forward is showing up and starting to learn. And once they do that, and become an ally, they start to understand all the challenges and become more educated. There'll be a couple of mistakes maybe along the way. But if you're trying to do the right thing, and you say the wrong thing, it's still okay, everyone's gonna forgive you just kind of learn and move on. I think education has become more accessible so far. So it's only building that momentum of more people becoming allies.

Corrie Melanson 13:27
I think what you're hitting on is the fear of the unknown. I think a lot of people are really afraid to make mistakes, which is fair, right? You don't want to offend someone. But also, I guess one of my philosophies in work and life is to fail forward. With the idea that of course, if I make a mistake, I need to apologize for it, I need to learn from it. But, when I'm in a position of being an ally, it is all about action. Like you can't just ruminate on it or think about it. It does mean doing something, it's a verb, right?

Paul Tingley 14:03
When that opportunity is there, you have to step up and do something to help the situation or move it forward.

Corrie Melanson 14:09
So what is an example either in your personal or professional life where people have been an ally to you as someone with a physical disability?

Paul Tingley 14:19
Well immediately, I think of when I had my accident. The whole community, of my friends and family, and the greater community really helped me out and they helped raise money. I was able to get some assistance aids, they helped me get like hand controls for a car. And so like all those people stepping up and helping in that time of need is a bit of allyship. And then in work, we work with organizations, and we try to legislate and build like best practices, but it's really like certain people that are champions in this work, and they really step up and do what's necessary and what's needed. And it's extraordinary when you see it. And then it really makes a big difference in people's lives. So I think of my sports, like the coaches that did kind of show up, and they didn't have to go in and start a new program for people with disabilities. But they did! And it's not easy, because they have to learn, there's so much, learning and some costs. They have to go through the barriers. And then they go through all that and you finally got a program. And then it's very low turnout sometimes because it's new. And when you compare, because everything's relative, comparing it to the non-disabled world; you're gonna have let's say 20 Kids. Whereas maybe with the pair world, it might be five. And that can look like not a success. But it really is, and it only grows year after year. So the allies are the people that stick with it. They're in it even when it gets a little bumpy, and always positive and cheerful and have empathy.

Corrie Melanson 16:04
Yeah, I love that. I love that description of allies really, really great. That like consistency, and the persistence is kind of what I hear you saying, right? So like, yeah, really sticking with it, even though you're like, 'Oh, that wasn't so great,' or it may not meet our measures of success. So we've talked a fair bit about what are some of the good things happening both in the public sector business, or nonprofit sector? What are some of the challenges in working toward accessibility in Nova Scotia? And I mean, you bring a wealth of experience from from all of those sectors, I think. What do you experience as some of the challenges?

Paul Tingley 16:47
Well, I guess the big thing that jumps out is just the need to normalize disability. And to emphasize it's not like this contagious disease that's going to spread if people step in and start trying to help. Letting people know that they're not going to be affected negatively by it. So, the biggest challenge is understanding that to comply with all the legislation, for example, what to do next to get a built environment more accessible you need a navigator. Someone who can answer 'Where's the first step?' Like, you need a shepherd, sometimes, because if you don't know, you just have no idea. And there's kind of like some stories out there, where it's like, oh, he's spent $100,000 on a ramp, but no one comes. The hardest part is really getting people to take action regardless and realize that if you do a little work, it might cost a little bit more just at the beginning. But, it's going to be an investment in a better society. I guess, for lack of a better word, you know, it's the chicken and the egg as well. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine the other day, who has a building and an apartment building, and he's been in that business for decades. And he's like, 'Yeah, I've never had anyone in a wheelchair!' And I'm like, well, do you have stairs up front? And he goes, 'Yeah. If we didn't have stairs, do you think I'd get more accessible requests?' I'm like, 'Yes, of course.' It's just the chicken and the egg. Why would they come and ask for it? The way he sees it is if they never asked for it, it's not a problem. And then another struggle would be that there are some costs. And that's why we have these programs that pay for two-thirds of the cost. There are also a lot on people with disabilities. They have legislation right now that they fought for. And now they got it, that's when the real work begins. And it's a lot of showing up and creating these standards, and it can cause burnout or fatigue for some people that are showing up. But it's necessary, and they continue to do this good work. So those are a couple.

Corrie Melanson 18:59
I think about that last one because I know some of the requirements for public sector bodies, are to create accessibility committees. I know that 30% or more of the folks who are part of these committees have to identify as a person with a disability. And it's come up in many conversations that like, oh, the labour for folks with disabilities is a lot. And it's so great that that's a requirement. But, I mean, you've probably been asked so many times to be on so many committees or to represent the disability community. It requires people with disabilities to invest time energy, and labor to move this forward. Yes, it will have really lasting impacts. But, what does that feel like, as someone who has been asked many times?

Paul Tingley 19:58
Well, I was at one time involved with too many boards and I burned out. So I had to like put a limit, you know, I'm only going to be on four boards at a time.

Corrie Melanson 20:09
Oh? Only four? Okay, okay, well, okay Paul haha.

Paul Tingley 20:13
You could go out and join a bunch, right? Yeah. But it's not easy to make a change, I guess. And I think the people who are showing up for these positions and giving that representation are so important. Because everything really starts with like, 'nothing for us without us.' So we want to be at the table. And really, we have that first-person experience, that lived experience, which is so valuable. Time and time again, I've seen that without representation, we miss the big picture sometimes. And then we're paying to fix it later, with band-aids. There's no easy answer, they're starting to pay people more for their time, which is great. Also with Zoom meetings and stuff, it makes it easier to show up at a meeting as well, instead of going out in the winter. It's not easy, but it's happening.

Corrie Melanson 21:02
I really think, wow, four boards, it's a lot to be on at one time. I appreciate that it's been built in. And really the accessibility legislation in Nova Scotia was the first time that legislation was co-created with the community and government. Essentially all legislation should be built this way. Right? So it is amazing! It's sort of taken the accessibility to kind of do things a different way, in terms of how laws are enacted in Nova Scotia, who is represented; and how are we embedding this in the work of organizations. So, I think there's so much to learn from what's happening. And not just the what, but it's the 'how' too. So, there are pluses and minuses to the way it's all being rolled out. But like, imagine if every equity-seeking group, in the work that's being done, there was that level of representation. I just think that is a key part of that, allyship, and what the 'Nothing about us without us' 'looks like. If that could be embedded into all kinds of equity and inclusion work, imagine just the impacts of that!

Paul Tingley 21:13
Exactly, you know, they would be all the voices represented. And yeah like having the leadership as well, to take on all of this. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, inclusion, and having everyone's different points of view and trying to move forward with common ground, can be a little messy sometimes. I don't know if you can ever achieve, like 100% inclusion. It sounds great! And that's definitely what we want. And if we could do it, we would. But yeah, you can really get bogged down. What if we had an instance where it was that, and then all of a sudden, this great strategy gets stymied? I think I heard the other day that there are problem solvers and problems stretchers. So, you know, like, let's solve this problem. Let's move forward. Let's learn as we go, and we'll adjust. But then the problem stretchers just like to stop and talk about it, and even say 'Oh, well, this isn't going to work.' So I've been on boards that have those as well. And it's, it just goes around and around and nothing really happens. So with the leadership, we get everyone together, but then we would have to have like really strong leadership to move forward and move things along.

Corrie Melanson 23:36
Yeah. So now that you are in public service, do you see leaders who look like you?

Paul Tingley 23:44
Yeah, I think everyone's getting more involved in this work. And they're talking about it. We have committees and we have goals, we have timelines, we talked about resources moving forward, and you have representation. Like, like I said, I got hired through a designated position. So the government is committed to seeing more people represented in the staff. And so you're seeing that more and it's becoming more diverse. And really, it's an awesome place to work, because you get to learn more about EDIA, and my personal journey, and to see that the government and our staff are all very much involved. We do a lot of work with the community and righting those wrongs, you're not going to right them but like you try to accommodate and, you know, give equity where it's needed. That starts with the people that are hired, and then they go out into the community and they start doing that work. And that's happening. So it's a long journey. The disability group is just one of many equity-seeking groups as well. But in time, we're always progressing and moving forward.

Corrie Melanson 24:59
Yeah, so EDIA?

Paul Tingley 25:01
Equity Diversity Inclusion and Accessibility.

Corrie Melanson 25:04
Yeah, I just always have to ask with all the acronyms. I feel like maybe this is your public servant avatar speaking through acronyms. I'm joking, only a little bit. But speaking of that, so sometimes what I have experienced is that people focus on the EDI. And the A is kind of like either left behind or not included. And I don't know, have you experienced that?

Paul Tingley 25:34
Not really, like, I think they're all different groups, looking for more equity, which is a long time coming. And I think when you learn, it's hard to learn about everyone on mass maybe. And that's really the challenge in all this work is understanding each group or each person's struggle and what's going on. But really, where we have to focus is on the intersectionality of these things. And so if you've got equity-seeking groups, and they have a disability, and maybe their socio-economic state is a challenge, they come from non-white backgrounds like they're gonna hit more barriers in society. So that's where we're really going to have to know about the EDIA and how they all mixed together.

Corrie Melanson 26:26
I really liked that focus on intersectionality. The layers or the barriers, then compile as someone maybe with those multiple social identities. I wonder if that's, I mean, that does seem to be more of a thrust of kind of EDIA work, as it should be. And I mean, it'll be interesting to see how some of the the work sort of shifts and changes as we take more of that intersectional lens. I'm curious, what keeps you going in this work?

Paul Tingley 27:00
Well, I had my accident, and then almost immediately you see the injustices and all the barriers, and you want to right them. And then you think about what the future generations have to go through. And I've always thought like, you have to leave things better than you found them. So really, my work is to make it better selfishly, for me, but I know it's going to help other people as well. So there are wrongs out there, and they need to be righted or be made more in balance. So that's what drives me.

Corrie Melanson: 27:31
Nice, and what gives you hope, for an accessible future?

Paul Tingley 27:36
Oh, I look at how far we've come actually. I mean, there's so much distance to go, no doubt, but we really have come a long way. So like the built environment, things are just growing. And I'd look at these legislations, and more provinces are coming. And sometimes I worry that we talk in silos, and we talk to the same people that know about the disability and accessibility, but there's, you know, a huge, huge percentage of the population that doesn't know these things. So really, for me, that's the big challenge. It's the people that don't know, that have that 'aha' moment and realize that all people matter and that they start looking after each other better. So that's what I really want to see kind of happen. And yeah, I think we're becoming better and more sophisticated at understanding, looking at data and finding ways to accommodate. That should start spreading and permeating through the general population more, and we'll see that kind of transfer into a more accessible society.

Corrie Melanson 27:36
Yeah. Wouldn't it be amazing if no one had to experience the barriers that, for example, I'm sure you've experienced in the last decades, right?

Paul Tingley 28:52
You see people that, overcome barriers and succeed. And you're like, Wow, that's so great. But like, that is great. And those people are amazing, but like, it shouldn't have to be that they are incredible people to overcome barriers. Like, let's make it a little easier for everybody.

Corrie Melanson 29:07
Yeah, and kind of level the playing field and remove the barriers that are in front of many, many people.

Paul Tingley 29:17
Sounds good to me.

Corrie Melanson 29:18
Alright. Thanks so much, Paul.

Paul Tingley 29:19
Thank you! It's been a pleasure.

Corrie Melanson 29:23
Thanks for tuning in. You can learn more at our website, Seachangecolab.com. That's S E A C H A N G E C O L A B .com. I hope you join us for our next conversation.